Fat loss on CICO?

(eat more) #41

still anecdotal and yes it’s on bodybuilding dot com lol

he fat loaded…i think he also one of the “voices” that has made “anabolic fasting” a current trend (a version of CKD) and obviously not sedentary.

cory gregory
"One of the most successful “diets” I’ve been on called for more than 6,000 calories. This physiological science experiment showed me that losing body fat can occur because of hormonal reactions to food."

“I’m sensitive to carbohydrates. In order to get my body fat low enough for competition, I have to go with a low amount of carbs for a long time. Carb cycling doesn’t work for me.”

(Larry Lustig) #42

Yes, this is what I said. LCHF and caloric reduction are complementary in keto weight loss, not opposed.

(Larry Lustig) #43

Interesting article, although a little confusing.

I believe he reports a four pound weight loss in a single day of eating 6000 calories. However, on that day he also ate in excess of 200 grams of carbohydrates (in the form of cashews, a high carbohydrate food) which he claims to be sensitive to. So, not sure what this means. I’d like to see what would happen if he continued that diet for, say, six weeks.

(Becky) #44

Great explanation!

(eat more) #45

maybe he meant low carb in relation to/percentage of total calories?
12.5% (200g carb)…while not keto (generally), is low carb to the rest of the world and definitely to bodybuilders…i think they’re usually at least 40% depending on what “phase” they’re in

(Jessica) #46

Now, am I seeing this correctly?

During adaptation I didn’t track, had everything keto I wanted, but I also didn’t loose fat. So after doing weight watchers I guess my BMR is totally down, also I’m only 1,6 m tall with a typical desk job.
In order to at least start to loose weight I’ve started to track not only carbs but all the macros, limiting calories to around 1500, real keto, 3 meals a day. Works so far. Because I’m having lots of veggies and enough calories left for fats, hunger is not really an issue.

BUT, for my understanding, this will slow down my metabolism, wouldn’t it?

I thought about introducing IF, and upping the calories for the remaining meals so overall intake stays at 1500. Too much? Too less?

Do you think this will prevent a reduction of my BMR?

I don’t want to put that much thought into how much I’m eating in the long run. But for now want a working strategy that doesn’t ruin my metabolism even further.

(Kel Ta) #47

yes, seems that more and more MD’s and nutritionists are admitting this- that you can’t just eat as much fat as you want and not stall weight loss. So in a sense there is a caloric limit to fat ingestion if you want to burn your own fat- although I am not really eating keto for weight maintenance I have noticed I get more lean when I happen to eat less fat by accident

(Michelle) #48

Hi - not sure if you are a podcast listener or not, but I found these 3 (I’ve only listened to episode 30 and 31 so far) very interesting, about caloric intake and women. He believes in a bulking phase in order to reset women’s metabolisms if they’ve been restricted too long.

(Jessica) #49

Thanks! I will listen to it, but mainly because I’m curious how people are supposed to loose weight afterwards then. Because some point you would face the exact same problem, I imagine.

Right now, bulking is not at all what I feel like doing. :grin:
But, who knows, maybe it convices me.

(Michelle) #50

No, I won’t do a bulking phase either. I do think that you have to find something that works, and when that stops working, do something different. So many metabolic processes at work… he talks about how raising your BMR is the BEST thing you can do to stay lean, so his methods of bulking/cutting are something he found works best.

he is NOT Keto though,so I like the info to hear about the science, but I will still live my Keto lifestyle. And keep trying things that work for me.

(Kel Ta) #51

So the CICO folks restrict all calories and exercise a ton with the BMR suffering BUT…many folks on Keto have to do more than simply restrict carbohydrate and eat fat to their hearts content to maintain fat loss and/or preferred body composition…

In reality you are saying that for many people to manage their weight on keto they have to intermittently restrict all calories from all macros in the form of IF and exercise intensely (HIIT and resistance training) to really see longstanding fat loss maintenance…

In some ways CICO and Keto share some features they both restrict calories but one restricts from all macros all of the time and the other restricts all macros for extended periods of time but both require exercise?

(Michelle) #52

I found this to be interesting too, from Doctor Fung, on calorie restriction:

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/

#53

Below is a quote from the article.

Yes, if Calories In is more than Calories Out then you will gain fat. But if you eat more Calories, you will burn more calories. If you eat less calories, you will burn less. So there is no overall change in body fatness.

In the Low Carb Leader podcast where Dan Perryman was talking with David Sean, Dan went from 1,800 calories per day to 2,800 calories per day over a longer period of time to raise his BMR and his body adapted to it by raising the amount of energy he expended, so he ate more and didn’t gain body fat.

I’ve seen the same effect in myself over the last 6 months, but more on the order of an additional 500 calories per day, with no increase in body fat.

I’m doubtful that you can significantly raise a “normal” metabolism by eating more, but I’m convinced that it’s possible to raise a damaged metabolism back into normal provided insulin resistance has been reduced or eliminated. In other words, it probably won’t work for people who are still severely insulin resistant.

Edit: @Daisy recently did a pseudo-BPC experiment where she added fats into her diet simulating an extra BPC in the morning and she didn’t gain weight either even though this was in addition to her normal diet.

(Adam Kirby) #54

The fasting and exercise don’t work by restricting calories, though, they work because they lower insulin. There have been enough n=1 keto overeating experiments that produced zero fat gain that I am highly skeptical about the importance of calories these days.

(Jessica) #55

So what would be your suggestion if someone firstly wanted to loose fat, without reducing BMR?
Is that even possible?

(eat more) #56

the ketogenic diet :grin:

#57

This came up in the Low Carb Leader (LCL) podcast with respect to an athlete trying to get “cut” after periods of unsuccessful dieting, and the the basic response was to go into a “building phase”.

For us non-athletes, that mostly means eating to heal your metabolism and stabilize hormones first since those are ultimately what control the storage of body fat.

This is why we advise against restricting calories because so many people have been dieting for so long, the chances are that they’ve already reduced their BMR and the focus should be on restoring it.

After a period of time that will vary from person to person, but I’d roughly say from 4 to 12 weeks, the focus should be on eating keto with plenty of fats, even if that means gaining some weight initially.

Before fasting, the idea of eating more to increase BMR and gaining weight until you’re body is really ready to lose weight would be very frustrating, but with fasting you can do both and this is even addressed in the LCL podcast where there’s a cycle of feasting to stimulate BMR followed by fasting where the body consumes the body fat.

This feasting/fasting/feasting cycle is what I’ve come to find is working better for my body and is raising my BMR in the process as evidenced by eating more and still not gaining weight over the long term.

After someone is definitely fat-adapted, they are probably ready to slowly reduce dietary fat and let the body release it from adipose tissue, thereby losing weight - this effect is predominantly from the reduction of insulin, but also the upregulation of what’s need to release and burn fatty acids for energy.

#58

What @mikki said, it’s much shorter than my answer. :laughing:

(eat more) #59

hahaha i was just typing that your answer was more informative than mine
our answers just balance each other lol

(eat more) #60

@BillJay are you gonna start a feast/fast thread? huh? are ya? (enough of a hint? :blush:)