Fasting -Formerly Easy- is More Difficult Lately; Ideas?

(hottie turned hag) #10

Seems obvious, I feel a tad moronic for not thinking of it myself (my master’s is in a med sci field to boot).

I think because I found fasting SO easy, from at my fattest when I started to just a little while ago, is why it confounds me. To suddenly have this nonsense crop up; a week or so ago I posted about my decreased appetite after abandoning the veg and cheese. Now it’s increased as I stated. Don’t LIKE!

I formerly had none of the issues folks report when fasting; I EXPECTED them, too.

Feeling weakish, headachey, sluggish and fuzzy headed now when I try to go past the 24h is making me mad :rage:.

Eating more is gonna make me mad too but I trust you guys advice so shall try it and report back.

(Bob M) #11

After being low carb/keto for 5.5 years and fasting 3.5 years, I eat a higher protein, lower fat keto diet. I still don’t have much problem fasting. (Don’t get me wrong – it’s difficult, but I can do it.) I think once you get past a certain point, your body can easily get into or out of ketosis.

(Bob M) #12

When I first started fasting, I could fast 4.5-5.5 days and work out several times during that. Now, I don’t attempt to workout when fasting, even for a day. Lately, I’ve been fasting 36 hours twice per week, with a workout at about the 32 hour mark, then eating when I get hungry. I try to eat a lot on the days I don’t fast. Sometimes I make it 36 hours twice a week (last week, yes), other times, I don’t (previous week was tough, not even one 36 hour fast). I’ve done one 4.5 day fast so far this year, but I did not attempt to exercise during it. It’s gotten much harder. But I’m lighter with more muscle mass.

Is the weakness caused by lack of sodium? I know Dr. Fung states we don’t need salt for one day of fasting, but I find it helpful to take some salt such as salt crystals or pickle juice.

(hottie turned hag) #13

Nope. I consume much sodium. Also note that nothing’s changed as to intake type nor quantity (for the most part).
It’s def just hunger. That this never happened until recently is the maddening part.

Only explanation has to be I have such small fat reserves now; but still need to get to 110 (I am VERY small framed; always need bracelets customized, etc).

(Karim Wassef) #14

I’m fat adapted and fasted for up to 19 days… when I talk about protein intake, I find that 0.7g / lb lean mass works… higher is risky, lower is easier for pre-fasting.

(Bunny) #15

Need to eat more fat before you fast?

(hottie turned hag) #16

Seems to be the consensus so yes I shall try this and report results :heavy_check_mark:

(Bob M) #17

Higher is risky? How so? (I eat quite high protein, a la Ted Naiman.) I have few issues fasting, and any issues I have aren’t related to fat (since I eat a lower fat diet, thereby removing that as a factor).

(Karim Wassef) #18

when I go over on protein, I get glucose spikes, ketone crashes and hunger.

part of my thread goes over this experimentally… Karim's muscle gain carnivore adventure

for context … I can eat 330g of protein a day… that’s excess. :smiley:

#19

@BlueViolet

I feel your pain. I’m a veteran of fasting, hard core since August. Like you I just seem to have reached an impasse. First a stall of two months, then went on extended vacation and fell off the wagon big time for three weeks. But I didn’t gain a whole bunch. But, the problem now is getting back into the fasting mode. Having a hard time getting past that 22-26 hour wall. Keep falling into food traps and even snacking on real sweets.

It has to be psychological in a large part for me. I hope you find the cure and pass it on to all of us. I’m struggling but am determined.

What scares me the most is discouragement followed by quitting and reverting back to old habits.

Time for me to summon up some of my old Marine Corps discipline. Wish the best for you.

(hottie turned hag) #20

@GentleBen thanks and thank you for your service to our country :us:

Minus the psychological component in my case since my rigidity secondary to OCD (heavy on the obsessive aspect :crazy_face:) has disallowed me to ever cheat/fall off wagon since I commenced this in 2017. Has to be just what was stated by the wise ones above. Am going to implement their suggestions of up quantity/up fat then fast 48h.

Wishing you the best as well. Maybe try dropping cheese and veg as I did, broke my stall with the quickness (and eliminated cravings) !

(Khara) #21

Yes, great article. I remember reading it years ago. Aside from fasting, it actually helped me to understand macro requirements just for keto in general, and how they differ for different people. When I first went keto, and so was just learning, I did the usual of lowering carbs to less than 20 grams and finding healthy proteins and fats to eat instead. I had heard that in order to not be hungry, eat more fat. And, a family member who was already keto said she included fat bombs to ensure enough fat. So, I made up a batch of fat bombs to have. I kept finding though that I didn’t need them, didn’t crave more fat, didn’t want them, they actually kind of repulsed me. I didn’t understand why she used these so much and I couldn’t. Then, I learned about the body fat factor and around then I also saw the above article. My body had plenty of fat to draw from and I really did not need to be consuming so much. Her body was actually pretty lean and fit and so she did need extra fat just to get through the day as a person on keto. Lightbulb moment.:thinking: So, this applies to both fasting and day to day keto. We aren’t all the same, and so can’t expect the same macros as our neighbor, and as time goes by we aren’t even the same as we used to be, and so we need to adjust, and keep adjusting.:confused: At least it’s better to understand it than just be in the dark. I understand your frustration though @BlueViolet. Best wishes!

(Jody) #22

This is an awesome thread, thank you all for good info!

(Mark Rhodes) #23

There is more supporting evidence Richard doesn’t supply.

AA pound of fat is equal to 3500 kcal. The average person might use 2400 kcal. 2400/3500= .685 pound of energy available if you can access it all. You would need 77 pounds of fat at 31 kcal per fat pound. We do see this type of loss in the early stages of our obese community. Then it tapers down.

Take Angus Barberi who fasted 382 days. He lost an average of .72 pound per day. However if you consider the amount of TDEE required to run 480 pounds, he was likely in the beginning using a pound and a half of fat a day.

Jason Fung sees an average of 1/2 per day on EFs according to his IDM blogposts. Again the math works out. Lets say you are 50 pounds overweight. That is 1550 available fat calories. 1550/3500 = .45 or just under 1/2 pound of energy consumed . Per day.

So I think it is safe to say that the Alpert paper which @richard based his premise on is accurate.

We just completed a ten day fast. After a 2 week feast we will get Dexascan- ed again. I have a calculated amount of fat I think the wife and I lost. being lean the best I could do is about 1/3 pound. She, being heavier should have lost about 1/2 of fat each. No matter what the scale says.

i’ll know next Wed. The math has always worked out in the past.

(Mark Rhodes) #24

In my last ten day fast I used butter fat to help on really intense days. I try to limit it as I am fasting more for autophagy and not so much for fat loss. In my case I think the mTor trigger as well as the AMPK pathway can be tripped by the fat consumption if done too much>
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(Jennibc) #25

This is awesome and explains a lot. Now I don’t feel so bad. I have tried to drop to one meal a day a couple of times a week and it’s not working for me. Right now I am sitting at 157 at almost 5’8 and it may be that I just don’t have enough to manage it. Last time I tried - this past weekend I got to 3 PM and had to eat something.

(Karim Wassef) #26

Why do you say that? The mToR is usually protein or insulin triggered - fat does neither.

And AMPK would be in support of autophagy so that’s a good thing?

(Mark Rhodes) #27

It is true that dietary fat is broken down by the pancreas and then distributed by the lymphatic system. So it shouldn’t require insulin and thus should NOT trigger the mTor. But there does need to be some sliding switch, not a binary switch that triggers how much autophagy and when. That I have successfully correlated repairing 7 herniated disks has been verified by MRI, the worse was a 10 x 10 x 12mm protrusion into my sciatica at L5-S1. That is no longer there. Instead of being permanently disabled as my doctor pronounced I am a healthy 55 year old.

So I am trying to make sense of it because some fasts produced far better results than others judging by how I felt. Nutrient sensing , not insulin seems to be a mTor trigger.

(Karim Wassef) #28

Hmmm

Fasting is complex but it’s not necessarily anabolism that is helping.

First, the drop in insulin reduces fluid retention and inflammation. Oxidative stress from diet drops substantially and allows the body to focus on AMPK driven autophagy.

So the healing is catabolic first. Eating fat doesn’t necessarily retard this. In fact, it stimulates more mitochondria to process the fat effectively in the low insulin environment.

On refeeding, mToR is triggered and that’s the anabolic component of healing. Basically, the real rejuvenation benefits of fasting happen during the refeed.

So healing from fasting doesn’t need mToR signaling during the fast… just after it.

#29

Same, just because it really helps with any hunger pangs.