Extended Fasts with Negative Results

[Debmeg]

Hi everyone,

Newbie on the forum, although frequent poster in various Facebook fasting groups. I had a question/observation and I wondered if anyone else had experienced something similar or had a scientific explanation.

Background: I have been a low-carber for sixteen years (!) Took three years to lose around 100lbs, kept it off for another four years, until pregnancy. The result of that pregnancy just turned nine in October, and since he was born I have been struggling to find the success with low-carb I had before. I couldn’t lose the pregnancy weight (I was soo sick that I had to eat carbs and despite throwing up four times a day I still gained weight), and over the years since, if I strayed even a little bit - one cheat meal here and there - I would gain weight. And on regular low-carb I didn’t lose. I had tried various things - cutting out sweetener for a month, no change. Going stricter keto for a while - lost a little weight but hated the weighing and measuring and couldn’t stick to it. Cutting calories as well as lowering protein and carbs and upping fat - nothing really happened. I stuck grimly to low-carb but was getting more and more discouraged and unhappy. Then about a year ago, I read The Obesity Code by Dr Fung. At that point it had been eight years since my first pregnancy (with another in the intervening years), and despite eating low-carb 99.9% of the time, reading and believing in all the low-carb literature, following all the gurus…I had managed to gain to 217 (I had been 157 when I got pregnant, and 187 when my son was three weeks old).

I started alternate day fasting and cut out sweeteners. I’ve gone from 3x24/week, to 3x36/week and now 3x40/week. I have lost between 42-45lbs in about eleven months. I finally feel like I have the answer, and I feel ‘in control’ again the way I did when I first started low-carbing. I love fasting! I love Dr Fung for how he has helped me!

And now, if you’re still reading, here’s my question/observation. I have tried to do extended fasts twice. The first time, I went from Sunday to Thursday night, when I started feeling ill, so I stopped. I managed fine from a hunger point of view. I lost 8.8lbs. However, when I broke the fast, I didn’t feel any better - in fact, I had a recurrence of the chronic fatigue that I suffered from twenty years ago - this occasionally happens to me when I get ill, it flares up for a few days. It took a week for me to feel normal again. AND I gained back every single pound of that weight loss, despite continuing fasting/keto, and it took over a month before I saw that lower number on the scale again. So clearly the extended fasting did not work for me at all. I tried again a few weeks ago, sort of by accident - I had been doing a 40 hour fast, then I ate a small meal and then I got sick (unconnected to the fasting), so I didn’t eat for another couple of days because of the sickness. Again, by the end of that time I’d lost four pounds or so, but once I ate, all that weight went back on, plus more. So right now, for example, a couple of weeks after that, I’m still 5 pounds higher than the lowest weight I saw during that fasting period, despite continuing to do my 3x40 fasts/week.

Logically speaking, I have to be losing fat when I’m not eating. I do plenty of feasting, so I’m not worried about lowering my metabolism, or going into starvation mode. I eat low-carb/keto so I know I am fat adapted. No sweeteners. And when I do my alternate day fasting, although I have experienced plateaus, I do lose weight, at a slowish pace. So why are extended fasts showing no results, or even negative results, where I get ill/put on weight? Is it too stressful for my body? I’m really fine with continuing the alternate day fasting, but on the other hand I’d like to do some longer fasts for the touted health benefits…

Any insight welcomed!

Thank you,

Deborah

[Berengal]

First of all yes, you’ll lose weight on extended fasts, but you’re actually not losing that much fat. Most of the weight lost will be water and other contents of your digestive tract, which you will easily regain when you start eating again. It’s quite possible for the amount of fat lost on a 5 day fast to be unnoticeable because of the noise of “transient” weight, which is especially variable when you’re fasting.

Secondly I would maybe look at the nutritional value of your diet. It’s especially important when you’re fasting to eat highly nutritious foods to load up on micronutrients. A good rule of thumb is to focus on whole foods and don’t overindulge in foods that are pretty much pure fat. It’s not that the fat is bad, but those foods generally have very poor nutritional value. Vegetable oils for example have zero micronutrients, butter is much better but still not very good. Hard and semi - hard cheese is good, avocado is great, eggs are fantastic. Organ meats are pretty much the king of nutrition so eat your liver.

[PugsDigMusic]

Congratulations on losing 45 lbs! That’s fantastic! I know what you mean about finally feeling in control.

I know there are some ladies on here that do EF’s, eat once or one day, then jump right back into EF, and that’s the only way they can lose. (@4dml - want to chime in here?) Maybe that would work for you? But, if you are saying that you feel ill and so terrible once you eat again after your EF, maybe it won’t?

Maybe you could try doing 40’s, which you are already doing, have one meal, then get right back to another 40? @4dml will have some valuable advice on this.

[brownfat]

When fasting our kidneys don’t retain salts well, especially sodium, and we lose more in our urine. The process is called the “natriuresis of fasting” which you can google to learn the details. Eating keto has a similar but weaker effect to fasting and not getting enough salts is probably the single most common problem for people starting keto and often results in fatigue sometimes called keto flu. When fasting it is important to maintain or up your salt intake. Some do this by consuming salty broths or salted water - sometimes called “keto-ade” when other electrolytes like magnesium, potassium and calcium are included. I prefer getting my salts on very low calorie foods like konjac noodles and celery and I call this “near fasting” as eating solid foods disrupts some fasting aspects such as keeping the bowels moving.

[gnomesb]

Hi Deborah, I haven’t got anything particularly to add to the ‘extended fast’ conversation but if Chronic fatigue has been an issue then I recommend Dr. Sarah Myhill - a UK GP who has specialised in CFS - particularly writing about mitochondria.
Here’s a link to her website - it has tonnes of info but so explore further than this link if it of interest to you. http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_The_Central_Cause:_Mitochondrial_Failure

Just a personal note on fasting: when I first started I tried a couple of extended fasts which didn’t go particularly well and in fact stalled my weight loss and I felt like it set my healing process back a step or two. I’ve been keto for 8 months now and recently did a 9 day fast without any issues and actually energised me. I’m guessing the difference is the healing that has happened between starting and now. Perhaps a slow introduction to EF until you’re body is stronger/health more stable. Only you can tell.

[4dml]

Logically speaking, I have to be losing fat when I’m not eating. I do plenty of feasting, so I’m not worried about lowering my metabolism, or going into starvation mode.

In my experience, it’s fairly easy eat through gains made from fasting. I don’t think women and older folks (as a gross generalization) respond well to fast and feast cycles. Adequate refeeding is important, but the ability to compensate for over eating/feasting is not great in many people.

If the weight comes on very quickly, it’s usually water retention. It will likely come off quickly if proper eating is restored. For example, last week I did a 1.5 day road trip and ate fried chicken, nibbled through a a pound of pecans, and drank a couple of 64 oz Icee (frozen sugar water). I gained 8 lbs overnight. When I arrived, I started fasting again, losing 2 lbs each day for the next 5 days. I broke this fast with Thanksgiving dinner, we’ll see what the scale says tomorrow.

I’ve never tried IF, so I don’t know how well it would work for me. I wanted the most efficient, most effective tool for fixing insulin resistance, so I was drawn to EF. Combined with its other benefits, was sufficient motivation for me to figure out how to make it work for me.

Dr Fung says the typical fat loss during extended fasting is about 0.5 lbs per day. My experience is consistent with that, though total scale weight has not been linear on a daily basis. My fasting usually lasts 4-10 days before it is interrupted by the consumption of a single meal. I typically consume 75-150 calories during fasting days, consisting of vitamins, cod liver oil, an ACV drink concoction, and bouillon. Plus whatever non caloric drinks I need to cox myself to drink 128 oz of fluids a day. When life events dictate that I eat, the fast is interrupted by the requisite meal (almost always a dinner). I don’t make any effort to “feast” or achieve any nutritional goal. If convenient it will be HFLC, often it is not. Regardless, that one meal will not usually disrupt my state of ketosis (I measure daily) or cause weight gain. But if I don’t return to fasting and continue to eat 2 or 3 meals, I will get bumped out and may gain a few pounds. The degree depending on the quantity and quality of the food consumed.

I’d have to look at my data to find a specific incident, but I’m sure that a 4 day fasting loss could be eliminated by 2 days of eating. Once I’m out of ketosis, it takes my body 3-4 days for my blood ketones to rise back up to 3-4 mmol. Similarly with my blood glucose, once it’s elevated it takes days to fall back down to the 60-70 mg/dL during fasting. So for me, it’s more efficacious to stay in a fasted state for longer periods of time.

I don’t know why EF is making you ill. If you have a doctor at your disposal, a routine blood panel will determine if there are any electrolyte imbalances. Insulin and A1c would be useful to know your metabolic health, which tends to explain why some things work for some folks but not others.

Perhaps you could ease your body into EF by doing a non water only fast. Or maybe do a fat fast for a couple of days and then go to water only. Or try extending the boundaries of YOUR current IF: for example, cycle fasting for two days and eating for one. Or try OMAD and progress to OM every other day, then OM every two days, until your reach OMAW.

Finally, what you’re doing is working for you, albeit a bit slower than you may prefer. You could just KCKO.

[cywgdave]

Something that might or (maybe more likely) not help with the EF, but with weight loss after pregnancy (even though it’s a few years). My wife has a family history of breast cancer and somehow in her research came across information on iodine, that led to the purchase of a couple of books, the one I’m thinking of is by Lynne Farrow, “The Iodine Crisis”, in it obviously there is a lot of talk about iodine and the thyroid, she makes a fairly compelling case that a lot of people suffer from an insufficiency in the body’s stores of iodine. Even if there is no clear thyroid issue. Perhaps especially if there is on hypo/hyper thyroidism- because then no one is looking for or thinking about it. Her argument is that this leads to a (I guess) sub-clinical case of hypothyroidism. My wife’s experience was that after a few weeks of supplementing with iodine that that little extra “baby fat” that she has been trying (via LCHF, IF, EF) to get rid of for the last 6 years now just started to go away by itself.

We’ve both noticed enough positive changes that we have now added iodine to our regular routine of supplements (although if you choose a liquid form you need to figure out how to get it down without tasting it- it is beyond vile taken straight- something I’ll only ever do once…)

My 2 cents. There’s a couple of books and also Farrow has at least one interview up on Youtube.

IMPORTANT If you choose to supplement with liquid make sure you get the proper form, the “tincture of iodine” or related substances are toxic (not due to the iodine- due to the carrier- typically methyl alcohol)

[Debmeg]

thanks, yes, i know - i do try for nutrient dense foods. i stay away from dairy because i think it’s inflammatory for me, but i eat protein, including liver, meat, chicken, fish, eggs, good fats, and lots of veg. unfortunately where i live avocado has been out of season for a while but it’s just coming back in, so i’m excited to be able to add that back in.

[Debmeg]

thanks, Donna I love keto and fasting - I’m 44, and I’m currently ten pounds less than I was when I was 14 - and I’m 77 pounds less than I was when I was 24! I think that the chronic fatigue that is an underlying issue for me may be the reason I can’t do the longer fasts. I will explore the links someone else gave me, about that - and continue with my sloooow weight loss by doing my alternate day fasting I’m already two thirds of the way to my goal… no matter how long it takes, I’ll get there eventually!

[Debmeg]

Dave, thank you for the input - I agree with you about iodine, and actually i recently bought kelp tablets (recommended by Dr Davis of Wheatbelly and Undoctored) as a way to support my thyroid function. I have pretty much all the symptoms of hypothyroid but always test normal. I haven’t been taking them long enough to see a noticeable effect yet, and I’m not sure if I should take them on fasting days, which limits me to four days a week…

[Debmeg]

Naomi, thank you so much for that link - I will definitely explore it. And I’m from the UK although I don’t live there, so I might even go consult with her at some point when I next visit. I knew about mitochondria - and one of the ways I think I ‘cured’ my original chronic fatigue was taking co-enzyme q10. I think of myself as ‘cured’ because I suffered badly for about eight months around twenty years ago and then it went away - but I’ve always been ‘low energy’ - or rather, I was low energy after that, it was so long ago I’m honestly not sure how I was before that, and when you’re overweight you’re also low energy… but it might make sense that while I think of myself as ‘cured’ of chronic fatigue that only flares up a couple times a year for a day or so when my body is stressed, maybe it’s actually an underlying condition that is why I’m always low energy despite my great keto eating. I took a quick look at the link, but I’m going to look in more depth and see about her supplementation recommendations.

[Debmeg]

I am definitely going to KCKO In the old days, sixteen-thirteen years ago, when I first started low-carbing and lost weight, it took me ages to lose, and I would plateau for months and then suddenly the weight would drop again - I used to call myself ‘princess perseverant’ on the low-carb forum I am used to having to be patient. And I think it’s definitely possible that the chronic fatigue that is an underlying condition for me means my weight loss is slow and my body gets too stressed out to cope with extended fasts longer than 40/48 hours. Thanks for your insight!

[Debmeg]

thanks, Todd. it’s definitely possible that i felt ill on that first long fast because i wasn’t ingesting enough salt - i was eating some, but not enough. nowadays i have sole water on my counter and take two tsp on days when i’m fasting, which definitely helps…

[gnomesb]

here’s a link to an interview with her on youtube - it the one I like best because she lays out her strategy so succinctly but there are tonnes of interviews with her on youtube as she’s written a book on CFS and mitochondria a couple of years ago.

good health xx

[cywgdave]

Personally I take my iodine on most of my fasting days, based on what Dr. Brownstein and Lynne Farrow say, if the body needs it it will retain it, and if it is sufficient it will excrete the excess. (Similar to salt- any excess to the body’s needs is unceremoniously dumped) You may find that the kelp tablets don’t seem to do much. I took a quick look at their iodine concentration with a quick search, I saw 200-650 mcg , my wife and I were taking 50 milligrams- 50 000 mcg and it took 4-6 weeks to notice changes. __ Especially in females the breast tissue can soak up quite a lot of iodine so that can mean it takes a while to notice other changes.

Brownstein’s book is “Iodine- why you need it, why you can’t live without it” I can’t honestly say which one I would recommend more, they are both pretty good, but different. Farrow’s book focuses slightly more on breast cancer while Brownstein’s is balanced across most areas.

[jrmorte63]

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum so I hope I am posting in the right place, I thought of instead of starting a new thread I would see if someone could lend their advice as I too am having some frustrating results on extended fasting.
I don’t want to go into huge detail, but just a bit of background.
54 yrs old, just had bloodwork done, no issues with thyroid, adrenal, diabetes,
but definetly insulin resistant, father died of diabetes and heart disease.
I have been doing keto since May of this year, not much success, maybe 5 lbs
then take off 3 more and put them back on! Found good info on youtube, started IF , still no weight loss, found Dr Fung, did a 3 day fast and boom, lost 4 lbs, thats it!!! thats all!! followed that fast with a fat fast, and back to IF, doing 24 hr, I had done the 16/8? Still the scale won’t budge, I did however lose 1/2 in from my waist!!! Yeaaaa!! Then I found Megan Ramos at ketofest on youtube, decided to do another prolonged fast, today is day 4, I drink, lots of water, I use raw ACV and pink himalayan salt off and on during the fast, I take mag, potassium, sodium and vit d supp, I did add bone broth last night as I was super hungry, it did the trick, woke up this am earlier then usually and I felt pretty good, no movement on the scale or the measuring tape!! Mind you I know that we shouldn’t obsess over the scale and I don’t know if I will break my fast today but. I am so frustrated at not seeing any movement!! my Husband has lost over 35 lbs, and I honestly am tired of the well hes a guy routine!! I have read where lots of women my age have dropped a good amount of weight quickly doing this, so what the hell is my problem?? Have I had to lose weight before ? yes, three diffrent times I have lost 30-50 lbs before and never had this problem, I know its working, my cholesterol numbers are showing it. I don’t know if I just need to fast for longer, like 7-10 or more days? When I feast I haven’t regained the weight?? I listen to Carl and Richards podcasts and hear Carl doing these fasts and then really feasting and I am scared to death to regain the weight!!
Oh and I do NOT cheat!! I think in the begining I was eating too much fat, I have since learned that by listening to the 2 keto dudes, but for the last two weeks I have tried playing around with switching it up and just not going anywhere!!
I know keto is different for everyone and that is why I am trying different things, I won’t give up on this, the science is too strong to ignore, but what the frick!!
Does ANYONE have any other ideas I can implement? or reasons why I can’t move the scale, I am not working out at this time because I am 60 lbs over weight and I have back issues, I own a farm and do chores, but I wouldn’t call it a huge work out, I lift bales of hay occasionally, feed buckets ect. I wanted to lose a bit and then take up toning exercises.
Anyway, thanks for listening, again if I posted in the wrong place I’m sorry,
I appreciate any advice or recommendations, Oh btw, my primary care is the VA, not keto friendly AND when I found a supposedly keto friendly Endocrinologist he wanted to put me on metformin!!! I live in rural eastern Washington state, not a lot of keto peeps around!! Ok Thanks for listening!!!

[gnomesb]

Sounds like you are already across a lot of the topics and trying different things…

A couple of thoughts worth considering:
What are your stress levels like? Cortisol can impede weight loss - I know you said that your adrenals are ok but that doesn’t mean that your not feeling stress.
Are you still menstruating? I.e. what are your estrogen levels like - see this article for some comments on this…
https://www.metaboliceffect.com/female-hormones-estrogen/

I have done one 9 day fast and have found that on breaking the fast and eating normally that weight loss has been steady and my hunger levels have been better (I had been stalled for about 3 months prior). I guess trying it out and seeing how you feel is the only way to know.

[jrmorte63]

Thank you for responding! Nope no more cycles, I haven’t had one in at least 4 yrs, and really no stress, life is good! Thanks for the link, good info! I just completed a 96 hr fast, it took till the last day to really start feeling energized? Wow 9 days! How did you feel? Everytime 630 pm rolled around I got REALLY hungry! So I did add bone broth and it helped, I only drank it when I was really hungy. So I just feasted, I will go back to 24 hr IF, I think I just have to experiment with different fasting and feasting times to see what works! Thanks so much for your suggestions! Much appreciated!
Julie

[gnomesb]

I actually was pretty hungry if I wasn’t busy - I work from home as a bookkeeper so some days were hard but if I was busy and active I would forget about it which reassured me that the hunger I felt at other times wasn’t true or concerning. I was intending to do a longer fast but a family member died so I came off the fast to be able to eat at the family gatherings etc. I have been wanting to get going on another 4-5 day fast but haven’t been able to do it yet (I wake up starving or cant stop thinking about food etc) - now that the weather is warmer I thought it might be a bit easier but the opposite seems to be the case! It seems to always start in the mind and the body follows.

[4dml]

found Dr Fung, did a 3 day fast and boom, lost 4 lbs, thats it!!! thats all!!

That’s normal! And depending on how you were eating during the few days prior, could be just water loss. Which can come back when eating is resumed. If you kept 1 lb off permanently, your body did great. During long term extended fasting, Dr Fung says typical fat loss is about 0.5 lbs per day.

Some folks need to incorporate more fasting to get the results they want. It is the most efficient mechanism for fixing metabolism. Despite what some folks (mostly men) have posted about feasting during feeding days, I think over eating can stall progress in many folks. It may not be necessary to count calories, but they still matter.

After 4 decades on this planet, I know what makes me tick- I’m results oriented, I want to focus on this, get it done and move on to the next project. One of my motivators is seeing the scale move. I fast continuously with occasional meal interruptions. During my journey, now in its 95th day, I’ve seen my weight remain unchanged for 3 days in a row while fasting. Another time, I had a day where it actually increased during a fast. But overall, it’s down 45 lbs. I don’t think I’m an aberration, in fact, my results would be better if my implementation was less casual. I think there are a couple of women here who have done long fasts and gotten great results.

Keep experimenting until you find the protocol that fits best into your life. Relax, you got this!