Extended fasting. Many questions


#1

I’m currently 90 hours into my first extended fast and I have a number of questions swirling around in my slightly foggy mind.

unlike the anecdotal accounts I hear from others about having energy and low hunger I seem to be getting more hungry and tired by the day (day 4 of water, black coffee, tea supplementing with mostly salt but also some lite salt and magnesium)

I am thinking this could be caused by any number of things including;

-first time fasting

-low body fat - I’m heading towards slim but not skinny at 176cm and 75kg (guessing between 20-25% body fat) - I can still grab handfuls of fat around my belly

-body defending weight “set point” - So I don’t know much about the science of set points other than personal experiences of losing weight and rapidly returning back to where I started. With keto I seem to have a much lower set point where I can eat what I want and don’t gain or lose weight (knock on wood). This is also my plateau point. I have been keto six months. I hit this point around 75kg 3 months in and have stayed there.

  • electrolytes - about three teaspoons of of salt, half a teaspoon of lite salt 300mg magnesium - not enough? 3-4litres of water. Peeing about 12-15 times a day

Another confounding factor is I am measuring blood glucose and blood ketones every morning and this morning I am 2.8mmol BG and 6.2 blood ketones. I have lost about 1.5kg since starting so I do have available energy?
When I first went keto I had that experience of focus and energy and lack of hunger which sounds similar to what people talk about with fasts but feeling a bit miserable at the moment. Will make it through the evening but at what point should I start supplementing with fat (what type and how much?) Or should I just keep pushing?


(Jay AM) #2

90 hours is a lot to take on for a first fast. What are your goals? Did you IF before this? If I gave you a knife and fork and a live cow, how likely would you be to eat it right then and there?

There are a lot of things to consider with long term fasting. Zorn Fasting Search try checking through these threads and maybe check in here with your questions also.


#3

Thankyou for your response.
I would like to lose weight but am also interested in the benefits of autophagy and am wondering if it will do anything for my gut and or skin condition
No. The cow will live to chew another day!
Yes. I IF. For some months before this mostly 18/6

At first blush my post may sound like a newbie cry for help but within that are complex questions for which I am hoping to find the answers for. I may not have worded it the best in my then state of mind. Also signed up to the Zorn fest and asked similar questions there but am looking for deeper answers.


(Jay AM) #4

Ah! The magic of autophagy. Well, here is a well cited article with lots of good autophagy and fasting studies.

I can’t specifically answer the other questions for you as I’m still trying to figure out the electrolyte thing myself and I don’t do blood tests. Maybe my comments will attract some smart people that can.


(Bunny) #5

2.8mmol/50.mg/dL: would eat little bit of protein (80 to 100.mg/dL) to enhance and stimulate glucagon production and liver uptake of glucagon (enhances the autophagy phase of fasting).

In my case I use grass fed offal!

6.2 Ketones moderately high; probably fluctuating to lower numbers (3.0 when autophagy actually may be active or happening) though, blood PH is becoming more acidic.

Reference notes:

  1. IGF-1 receptor antagonism inhibits autophagy.

  2. Reciprocal Crosstalk Between Autophagic and Endocrine Signaling in Metabolic Homeostasis

  3. The differential regulation by glucagon and growth hormone of insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-I and IGF binding proteins in cultured rat hepatocytes. This study has demonstrated that glucagon, as well as GH, has significant effects on the production of both IGF-I and IGF-BPs. Of particular interest was the marked augmentation of hepatic IGF-I messenger RNA levels and the reversal of the low levels of IGF-BP production seen on adding glucagon to bGH.

  4. Glucagon Decreases IGF-1 Bioactivity in Humans, Independently of Insulin, by Modulating Its Binding Proteins.

  5. Glucagon decreases IGF-1 bioactivity in humans: A novel mechanism by which caloric restriction inhibits cancer development
    Conclusion: These results indicate that glucagon decreases IGF-1 bioactivity in humans independently of endogenous insulin levels. This reduction may be related to higher levels of IGFBP-1 and IGFBP-2 but not to changes in total IGF-1 or IGFBP-3. Increasing nuclear FOXO1 import may explain the glucagon-mediated up-regulation of IGFBP-1, whereas more analysis regarding glucagon-induced IGFBP-2 is required. Furthermore, we speculate that glucagon-mediated reduced bioactive IGF1 may be responsible for the positive effect of fasting on tumorigenesis.


(Alan Williamson) #6

If you are tired, it tends to be caused by 2 things. One is low electrolytes. You can put a pinch of salt on your tongue and let it melt. Literally in minutes, you will perk up. The other is that your body is in some gluconeogenesis. The body is using protein to create glucose. This is odd because your ketones are high. Nonetheless when the body does this, urea accumulates in the kidneys. A person will feel exhausted. You might try a supplement: L-Carnitine. L-Carnitine will enhance fatty acid metabolism. Good stuff!


#7

I have lambs liver? 100grams? I am a bit hesitant as that would really seem to be breaking fast?


#8

I heard the thing about the salt on the tongue and have been doing this on occasion for hunger pangs. Also hitting up the salt half a teaspoon at a time in my 800ml water bottle. No dramatic difference. I took a multivitamin for the first time during the fast last night. Usually they turn my urine bright yellow but not this time… Could I be low on B? Have read this is important for fat metabolism but it’s rare to be deficient. Will see if I can get my hands on some carnitine. Thanks


(Bunny) #9

You would not be breaking a fast eating a little bit of protein. lol (If your purpose is autophagy or weight loss?).


#10

Actually protein, specifically the amino acid leucine has the direct effect of triggering the ‘fed’ state in the mTOR complex, which turns off autophagy eg Fung , deeper


(Bunny) #11

…yes, but it is extremely temporary


#12

hmm, do you have a source for that ?


#13

This was my layman’s understanding. So I ended up having 15ml of MCT oil combined with 200mg caffeine pill and Vitamin B complex. Went to the gym and felt pretty great for about 4 hours. Can’t be certain if it was the MCT but I usually take all the other stuff pre workout and this was different. Like early days of keto.
Could someone explain why the MCT would affect me differently to the high ketones already in the blood?


#14

thanks bunny. will need to research this more in future


(Bunny) #15

I am talking about increasing glucagon not decreasing it! If I am fasting extensively for more than ten days and I eat a little piece of protein let’s say a quarter ounce chunk of meat, that is going to throw me into a fed state and out of autophagy? (not likely, anomalous and brief at best)

Eating that little piece of protein is the mTORC1 ON/OFF (balance) switch or window. Glucose, ketones and free fatty acids all inhibit glucagon release. Amino acids stimulate glucagon release and uptake into the liver, covalent phosphorylation (NADH + (1/2)O2+ H+ ==>NAD+ + H2O = redox potential) initiated by glucagon activates the former and inhibits the latter.

EF/IF FASTING==>DELTA SLEEP==>HGH==>IGF-1, IGF-2, EGF (or other variable)==>OFF[mTORC1]ON<==GLUCAGON<==PROTEIN INTAKE

Fung: “…Is it all protein or certain amino acids? The answer is not known. In animal studies the specific amino acid that is critical differs between species. In humans, branched chain amino acids SEEM to be a particularly strong activatory of mTOR… …More

Then this is stated:

Fung: “…What turns off autophagy? Eating. Glucose, insulin (or decreased glucagon) and proteins all turn off this self-cleaning process. And it doesn’t take much. Even a small amount of amino acid (leucine) COULD stop autophagy cold. So this process of autophagy is unique to fasting – something not found in simple caloric restriction or dieting. There is a balance here, of course. You get sick from too much autophagy as well as too little. Which gets us back to the natural cycle of life – feast and fast. Not constant dieting. This allows for cell growth during eating, and cellular cleansing during fasting – balance. Life is all about balance. …More

(Figure 1). Christian de Duve, the scientist behind the discovery of the lysosome, coined the term autophagy, “self-eating”, to describe this process. The new vesicles were named autophagosomes. …More

Insulin and Glucagon

Effects of glucagon and fasting on acetate metabolism in perfused rat liver Abstract (1) Effects of glucagon treatment in vitro and of fasting on [2-14C] acetate metabolism were studied in perfused rat liver. Glucagon stimulated ketogenesis about 2.8 fold and the incorporation of label into ketone bodies only 1.7 fold. The diminished specific activity of ketone bodies produced in the presence of glucagon was interpreted as evidence for increased production and disposal (turnover) of acetyl-CoA. Inhibition of acetyl-CoA utilization by other routes, therefore, was not a major cause of the increased ketogenesis. From a consideration of label incorporation into derivatives of the Krebs cycle in relation to the specific activity of acetyl-CoA (as judged from ketogenic rate and label incorporated into ketone bodies) glucagon appeared to accelerate the initial steps of the Krebs cycle about 2 fold. It diminished label incorporation into fatty acids to a degree corresponding to the reduction in acetyl-CoA specific activity. Incorporation of label into cholesterol was not affected by glucagon. (2) In livers from fasting rats, ketogenesis was increased about 6.7 fold and label incorporation into ketone bodies was increased about 5.3 fold over values in fed controls. Thus, the turnover of acetyl-CoA appeard to be increased slightly by fasting. Krebs cycle activity was essentially unaffected by fasting. The inhibition of fatty acid and cholesterol synthesis in these livers appeared sufficient to contribute significantly to the ketogenic rate by sparing acetyl-CoA. (3) Gluconeogenesis from endogenous substrate was markedly stimulated by glucagon and moderately stimulated by fasting.
(4) Secretion of newly synthesized total fatty acids, cholesterol and cholesterol ester into the circulation was markedly inhibited by glucagon.

Insulin-stimulated phosphorylation of lipin mediated by the mammalian target of rapamycin There is evidence that the activity of mTOR in cells is increased by amino acids (22–24), and the protein is believed to function in a nutrient-sensing pathway that maintains a proper balance between amino acid availability, protein synthesis, and cell growth (16, 17).

Glucagon Decreases IGF-1 Bioactivity in Humans, Independently of Insulin, by Modulating Its Binding Proteins.

mTORC1 activity repression by late endosomal phosphatidylinositol 3,4-bisphosphate

Scientists find off-switch for the mTor complex
The important control functions of the mTor kinase influence cell metabolism, division and growth. For example, the molecular control unit ensures the production of new proteins or the storage of fat and carbohydrates in metabolically active tissue. These processes are stimulated by the influx of sugar and amino acids and by signals initiated by growth factors including the insulin-like growth factor. If this influx does not occur in a starvation period, mTor switches the cell from anabolic to catabolic mode. Instead of synthesizing new proteins from amino acids, the cell now activates clean-up processes to remove damaged proteins, which could become hazardous for the cell or organ. The cleansing effect of interval fasting is attributed to the consequences of deactivating the mTor kinase.

As the cell’s molecular control center, the mTor kinase regulates cellular metabolism, growth and division. However, in cells affected by pathological change, the regulation goes array. Therefore, it would be helpful if the central control could be simply turned off to suppress insulin resistance or cancerous growth for example. Scientists at the Leibniz–Forschungsinstitut für Molekulare Pharmakologie (FMP) in Berlin (Germany) succeeded in locating a crucial off-switch for the central cell control. Paradoxically, this ‘off-switch’ is a lipid kinase producing a product previously known for its role in the activation of mTor. The results just appeared in the high-ranking journal Science. They bolster the hopes of patients waiting for new effective therapies against diabetes, obesity, cancer and a rare congenital muscular disease.

As the scientist discovered, another scarcely investigated specific class II lipid kinase (PI3KC2ß) exists in the cell, which deactivates the mTor complex on the lysosomal membrane in the absence of stimulating signals from the outside. In the absence of hormonal signals such as insulin or insulin-like growth factor (e.g. at night), the lipid kinase PI3KC2ß becomes active at the lysosomal membrane. The active lysosomal lipid kinase phosphorylates a lipid, which then deactivates the mTor complex. Under these conditions the lysosome mainly functions to degrade cellular proteins.…More

Autophagy: cellular and molecular mechanisms

Analog modeling of glucagon-induced autophagy in rat liver. I. Conceptual and mathematical model of telolysosome-autophagosome-autolysosome interaction.

Scientific Illuminism by Paul Joseph Rovelli Liber Vox Viva Voce vel Video pp. 118: “…Overall, energy moves from the physical and etheric bodies to the emotional and then subsequently to the mental to the spiritual bodies and simultaneously, in the opposite direction as well, culminating in the physical body.

”…For each cell, if you separate the two strands of DNA, you will discover a connecting link, a ‘phosphorylation’ or ‘fizz of light’ (Hadit) that is the connecting current of the two strands.…” “…Remember that DNA is but a protein and it is this light or phosphorylation that regulates its activity by attaching it to a phosphate group, such as ATP, which causes a structural change in the protein to enable it to bind or release itself to or from some other molecule. This is important when considering the cell’s need for oxygen. The cell is either reduced or negatively charged (reduction), being in need of oxygen or it is oxidized and positively charged (oxidation). A unit with two cells, one in each of these two states is called an electrochemical half-cell. Together, they will seek a state of electro-chemical equilibrium relative to at least one common intermediate half-cell, giving us a voltage.

This system is referred to by scientists as ‘redox’ and is further described by the following formula: NADH + (1/2)O2+ H+ ==>NAD+ + H2O

In their paper on Quantum Bioholography, Richard & Iona Miller note:
“The superposed coherent waves of different types in the cells are interacting to form diffraction patterns, first in the ‘acoustic’ domain and in the electromagnetic domain. This is a kind of quantum hologram. Interactions of solitonic oscillations in the liquid crystal structure of DNA and the polarization vector of the ultra weak biophotonic highly coherent light, could be understood as a mechanism of translation between holograms in the ‘acoustic’ frequency domain of short range effects and those in the electromagnetic domain, and vice versa.”

The “light” they are referring to seems to parallel Eliphas Levi’s AUR with the “acoustic” energy equivocating with the AUD and the electromagnetic energy equivocating with the AUB.
NADH is ‘Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide,’ a coenzyme made from vitamin B2, or niacin. It’s a coenzyme present in all living cells and serves an important role in helping enzymes to function as they should. An enzyme is a protein that works as a catalyst to generate chemical changes in other substances, such as breaking down food into energy. NADH stimulates the production of ATP (adenosine triphosphate), which is a compound that regulates the release of energy stored in cells. The more NADH a cell has, the more chemical energy it produces. Increased concentrations of NADH in the brain may even boost the production of neurotransmitters so vital to sound mental function.


Dr. Bikman's Lecture on Insulin vs Glucagon
Rosedale and mtor - how do we decrease it?
#16

Cool, thanks. I’m currently going down the rabbit hole and playing sci-hub whack-a-mole (.la is good for those playing at home). Especially enjoyed the Sinha et.al. review and got a good chuckle from Regen and Terrel.
While I peruse, which may take a while, only so many available hours, let me see if I get your hypothesis.
My understanding is that glucagon is stimulated by fasting anyway, facilitating lipolysis. You seem to imply that after some period of extended fasting glucagon starts to fall off (which I need to find some hard evidence for, but seems reasonable), and it is useful to spike it back up with some protein (and I commend the choice of liver, best bang for buck) to get the fat flowing freely again. Does this seem an appropriate summary ?
This seems like an interesting advanced fasting technique, potentially quite useful, in the context of a 10 day fast with 16g of liver (where’d 80 to 100.mg/dL come from ?), perhaps less so for 4 days and 100g as an inexperienced faster like the OP. It’s easy enough to find evidence that 1.8 g leucine will depress autophagy for at least 3 hours.
In an environment where fasting experts debate whether black coffee ‘kicks you out’ of autophagy (spoiler, there’s precious few binary states in biological systems, it’s a matter of degrees), extraordinary claims and all that.


(Bunny) #17

The science of the various types insulin the pancreas can utilize or can secreat endocrinollogically are not well understood and is rather esoteric and confusing to date! I could envision different types of fasting paradigms for cancer and other diseases!


(Bunny) #18

Additional Resource Reference:

Protein Cycling & A Cell Death Deep Dive With Author Naomi Whittel. - Podcast:

During our discussion, you’ll discover:

-The surprising truth about inducing programmed cell death…[11:55]

-Naomi’s autoimmune disorder that sparked her quest to discover how to heal her skin and body…[14:45] -

-Why the 2016 Nobel Prize in Medicine was specifically focused on autophagy…[21:50]

-Naomi’s shocking discovery about how fish oil is actually harvested…[25:40]

-What Naomi discovered about citrus bergamot’s effect on cell death when she was traveling in Italy…[29:20] -The mind-blowing study Naomi conducted on a group of women in Jacksonville, Florida…[34:00]

-How to induce programmed cell death via intermittent fasting combined with protein cycling…[38:10] -What foods you should break a fast with…[42:15]

-The best type of exercise to activate cellular autophagy…[55:30]

-How Naomi maintains flawless skin, hair and nails while traveling internationally as hard-charging CEO…[60:50 & 65:00] -And much more!


Fasting is easier for me with Amino supplements, "The Craving Cure" https://www.juliarosscures.com/
Nathan's Keto Journey To Race Weight