Extended fasting and HIIT/strength training

fasting
exercise
extendedfast
cortisol
(Julia Wilson) #1

I can’t get a straight answer on this and I’m wondering if a learned person can weigh in on this topic. Is it ok to exercise at the same intensity as you normally would without fasting on an extended fast? My concern is that intense daily exercise without eating might raise cortisol levels such that the weight loss/HGH benefits would be hindered. I love fasting but I also really love working out too and I don’t want to disrupt my training. Thanks to anyone who has insight!

#2

I’d like to know the answer to this @Julia_Wilson’s question also.

(Mark Rhodes) #3

No science but science based answer: I do and here’s why. I do regular fasts of 36 or 72 hrs I also do a 3 day split between posterior and anterior planes plus leg day. I do this Fri-Sun then recover. I try to time my fasts to end with one of those lifting days so that I have quite a bit of cell components available from autophagy and the ability to use them through GH. After workout 1 I supplement with BCAA and then immediately prepare my meal and eat. The idea being that I can use that insulin spike to carry the nutrients to where they are most required due to the workout. I have been doing this for a month now and I have visible grown and added weight but my shirts are tight in the right spots and loose by the belly.

My fasted workouts are done to take advantage of the metabolic reactions created by fasting. I do not know how effective this would be doing the 3 days in the middle and not refeeding.

(Charlie Kathopoulis) #4

That’s a great question. I like @marklifestyle answer. Usually, when doing an extended fast, I tend to focus on endurance/cardiovascular based activities. I do 16/8 splits and do gym, and CrossFit and soccer fasted but eat straight afterwards. But my understanding is that whilst in a fasted state the body is using its fat stores to fuel energy, with HgH being released to preserve lean muscle mass. I thought I read somewhere that the body will use autophagy to break down non-related tissues to preserve muscle mass. Might be best we get some more learned people on this one :slight_smile: @richard

(Julia Wilson) #5

so if I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying you have a strength day on the final day of you fast, then feast once it’s over to maximize muscle growth?

(Julia Wilson) #6

I’d love to get @richard 's opinion on this! I know he doesn’t define himself as an athlete but it would be cool to get an expert on 2KetoDudes to discuss this topic if possible. I think there are many people who could benefit :slight_smile:

(Charlie Kathopoulis) #7

Definitely, I think that would be a great podcast. When I do my extended fasts I only do cardiovascular exercise to maximise fat loss. My HIT days I stick to a 16/8 split. I think though that having a high calibre athlete would be a wonderful learning experience

#8

You approach makes sense. I feel an n=1 experiment coming on.

#9

This came just as I was debating whether to end my 3 day fast (was considering going to tomorrow afternoon but have dinner plans tomorrow night), I had planned to go to the gym today so decided to bring a snack with me for after. I did about 20 minutes of almost slow burn style exercise (new to this so probably not doing it perfectly) and then went for a swim. The swim was great, the slow burn, especially the first ones, were ok but not as great as on Sunday. Might have been too soon and I did not have time to do 10 minutes of elliptical or bike as usual

When I got out of the pool I felt great. Alert, ready to go, could easily have done more but it was closing as the swim team was coming Was not terribly hungry until I started eating the snack (uncured baloney and a mini tub of guac). Then I had to go pick up a kid and did not get home for an hour. I was starving by then! I had to eat. Also, I could not get enough salt despite having been mainling pink salt all day and supplementing potassium and magnesium plus I am very thirsty. I ate an entire jar of pickles, meatballs, shiritaki, various nuts and I am still mentally hungry and foggy and want to sleep

Will see what the scale shows and how I perform at the gym next week

(Ross Daniel) #10

This makes a lot of sense to me, and I basically do the same thing but I do Body By Science once a week and I try and go at the end of a fast to do my session. I make sure to get enough salt in before I go as well, or else I don’t feel right.

The way I look at it is from the standpoint of what would our ancestors have done? Well, probably they would go a few days without eating, while perhaps tracking a prey. Upon finding their prey, they would do an intense “workout” where they would chase/fight/kill the prey, followed by a feast. If this went on for millions of years beginning with the birth of the genus homo back in the day (which was a Tuesday I think?) it makes sense to me to fast, and while fasted do HIIT or whatever form of exercise you’d typically do while in a fed state.

(Richard Morris) #11

Yeah I haven’t been an athlete since I played Rugby at 19. I’m a highly functional human mover on a bike tho. We spoke to Tim Noakes last week (should be in this weeks podcast) but this wasn’t a subject I thought to bring up. But we will be speaking with Tim and Peter Brukner a lot over the next few months as part of the Obesity Code Podcast … I’ll see if I can get a learned expert to weigh in on the subject.

(Richard Morris) #12

We use autophagy all the time to recycle proteins, but when we fast the process kicks up several notches. If you are giving specific muscle tissue messages to grow (weight bearing exercise mainly, but also dietary cues like lysine, and hormonal like HGH) then that tissue would be less likely to participate. When we are changing the amount of body fat we have we are continually remodeling the collagen matrix that supports adipocytes to balance the needs of expansion and support. So if you are reducing body fat, and building muscle then I would expect you are recruiting amino acids previously used in protein to support body fat to build muscles.

There’s a nice thought

I think I may be fat adapted... what's the Next Step?
(Julia Wilson) #13

I didn’t mean it as an offense, Richard, I promise! :smile:

(Charlie Kathopoulis) #14

So a one - two punch :slight_smile: break down fat fasting, release excess support matrix to then build muscle. Loose fat build muscle :stuck_out_tongue: I am sure there’s a limit but it is a wonderful thought.

PS How about coming to the border as I have 30 odd people that would love to speak to you and Rob :slight_smile:

(Richard Morris) #15

I love Albury–Wodonga - what’s not to love about a place that has an “Essential Ingredient”. I’ll see what I can do in the new year.

(Mark Rhodes) #16

Yes. Currently. At the end last week on the 3rd I weighed 198 and did legs, BCAA and feast. The 4th Chest, shoulders, BCAA and feast and the 5th Back, Bi, tri BCAA and feast. On Monday the 6th I weighed 212. As of today i weighed 204. I work out tonight but as I didn’t do any EF coming into my workout I will not supplement, just eat normal.

I think that the rapid weight gain was glycogen binding to water at a 3:1 ratio. On the 7& 8 I fasted again assuming I had ample stores in my muscles and likely accessed very little body fat.

(Mark Rhodes) #17

Ross- My current workout came out Body by Science. Over the summer I did the once a week but after 30 plus years of lifting either it was mental or I needed the altered schedule that the authors refer to. Either way, I came up with this but have incorporated the slow on the eccentric. Well, technically, I do 4-7 reps at a normal pace to tire out the slow twitch, then slow my cadence down for the next 3-6 reps. Wherever I burn out I pause until failure.

(What The Fast?!) #18

Reviving an old thread to ask then…I’m in the middle of a short fast (16 or so hours into a 36 hour fast). I did an endurance ride this morning but was planning to lift legs tonight. If I’m not going to refeed tonight with protein…is it wise to lift at all?

(PJ) #19

Have you ( @richard ) heard of any way to specifically target autophagy for the collagen-spectrum of aminos? (I was thinking this might be a way to address loose skin.)

(Richard Morris) #20

The collagen matrix is extra cellular so it’s not involved in autophagy which occurs inside cells. as they break cellular proteins into their component amino acids. As I understand it fat cells are always remodelling the matrix around them as they grow and shrink. It is the scaffolding that they sit within. So as you draw down the energy stored in your fat cells that collagen is remodelled.

Loose skin is inevitable when the subcutaneous fat and the mass of collagen around it is reduced. Jason Fung contends that fasting will begin to remodel skin as well. I don’t know a lot about that mechanism, sorry.

I think I may be fat adapted... what's the Next Step?