I think I may be fat adapted... what's the Next Step?

(Jane) #11

Isn’t it AMAZING!!! :smiley:

This morning I had to get some blood drawn and the orders came from a specialist in another city so I went to my PCP for the blood draw. My husband and I had not eaten anything yet and it was almost 11:00 am. No biggie - we are fat-adapted.

Well, my PCP didn’t know how to draw for one of the tests so they sent me across the street to the hospital. Well, I had to wait an hour to be “admitted”, sign a bunch of paperwork and wait some more to be called for the blood draw.

By this time it was after 1:00 pm. Pre-keto I wound have been STARVING!!! And cranky and have a low blood sugar headache by then. My husband and I shrugged and said “meh”. We didn’t care.

(Robert C) #12

If you do OMAD Saturday and Sunday and a 48 hour fast Monday and Tuesday - that means you would only have two meals between now and Wednesday.

Yes, meal skipping is a way to get your body to burn stored fat and being fat-adapted makes that less painful but - you might want to think about a scheme that is more sustainable (and therefore likely more effective).

Something like 2 36 to 42-hour fasts per week (two non-consecutive full days of not eating - ending with breakfast or lunch).
Once comfortable with that (and if you find that tolerable - you’ll know after a month), move up to 3 fasts per week.

I think this is similar to what the IDM program does and so, probably good in terms of compliance (which is a big focus for them).

(Robert C) #13

I think the important distinction is the exercise - specifically strength training.

One of the fasting adaptations is to produce extra human growth hormone (HGH).

The body wants the muscle spared and the fat burned and the extra HGH will help.

But, if you just lay around or only do light exercise (walking, cardio etc.) the extra HGH bath your muscles are getting will only serve to slow down muscle breakdown.

That is a big waste - add some strength training to take advantage of the extra HGH and you likely ensure any muscle loss was made up for by new muscle gained - and maybe extra too.

(Windmill Tilter) #14

Good point. Resistance training definitely plays a key role in retaining lean mass during weight loss. I believe that’s true any time you lose weight. My understanding is that regardless of how you do it, if you lose 1lb of fat, you will lose a few ounces of lean mass. I’ve never seen anyone quantify the lean mass loss difference between regular weight loss vs fasting weight loss, but I’d bet the difference is relatively small; it’s possible that the advantage might even lean towards fasting depending on the duration/frequency.

I guess my point was just that whatever the lean mass loss is from 84 hours of weekly fasting, even 15-20 minutes of resistance training per week is more than enough to offset it.

(Robert C) #15

There is another aspect to the losing a pound means losing muscle mass.

When you lose significant weight (25-50 pounds), you simply do not need as much muscle.

Every time you stand up your legs need to push up against less and less resistance.

Body won’t keep metabolically expensive muscle around it doesn’t need.

(Alec) #16

Can’t agree more… 2nd Saturday in a row that after my regular 5k race this morning I was just not hungry, and disappointed my local cafe by not ordering my regular breakfast, and just had a coffee.

It’s now lunchtime, and still not hungry. I can feel the body fat being chewed on! :joy: I think my body has just decided it doesn’t like how fat we are (my body and me!)

(mole person) #17

This is an excellent question and just one of many unknowns. I’m completely dissatisfied that lean mass losses, during reasonable length fasting by people with decent fat stores, is mainly composed of tissues that we want to preserve. Lean mass is everything that isn’t fat mass, it even includes blood volume which also shrinks as you lose weight.

We need some serious fasting science to answer a bunch of questions.

  1. What amount of muscle, bone, and organ mass is lost during short term extended fasting?

  2. What are the differences between losses in these tissues attained via this dietary restriction versus a similar fat loss from calorie restriction?

  3. How persistent are these changes? I mean, I really don’t care if I lose an ounce of muscle on a fast if my body builds it right back on a decent refeed coupled with a workout.

I know that I gain muscle just fine while losing weight. I understand that this doesn’t work for elite bodybuilders, but I’m not one and neither is most everyone else. Until I see decent science in contradiction I’m absolutely inclined to believe from multiple n=1 anecdotal evidence that the same applies to reasonable length fasting followed by appropriate refeed size and duration.

(mole person) #18

So much this. If someone is sedentary there is zero reason for the body to preserve tissues that are no longer required to push around the same load.

(mole person) #19

Here are some interesting and relevant thoughts from Richard in another thread.

More yummy lean mass that does nothing but support the fat mass for your body to catabolize and scavenge for proteins.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #20

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2279566/

(Ang ) #21

@CarlKeller Thanks for the tip on Dr. Jason Fung, def. interested in checking him out! What I can say from experience, is that I’ve spent most of my life intermittent fasting, (without even realizing that’s what I was doing), as well as doing more than 24 hour fasts; typically 3 days. The scale never budges, nothing changes. I have metabolic issues, so even though I’m someone who is not caffeine sensitive (caffeine does not wake me up like it does for many folks). The one common denominator is that during every fast I always drank regular black coffee, and of course plenty of water. It seems logical that this is due to metabolic issues.

I would think the same is true for the conflicting studies regarding increased glucose levels w/ caffeine. I’m from the old school where we would make a pot of coffee and drink at least half of it by noon, ha. I could still lay down and take a nap. I’m the person who can drink caffeinated coffee at midnight and sleep like a baby, ha. So it seems like common sense that the study results depend on whether someone is caffeine sensitive or not; and if they have other complications such as metabolic issues.

For me, it’s just not a risk I’m willing to take anymore. :slight_smile:

Hey, thanks for the warm welcome!

(Ang ) #22

Hey there @Don_Q Thanks for pointing this out and thanks for the tip on Dr. Fung! Yes, I’m speaking from a perspective of a fairly sedentary lifestyle. I just read about losing muscle mass along with moderate exercise for more than 24 hours this past week . I spent 15 minutes looking for the article and of course cannot find it. Kudo’s to losing 40 pounds, that is no small feat!

(Carl Keller) #23

image

This book has changed a lot of people’s lives. JF is a master of teaching people with an average grasp of heath and nutrtion how macros, exercise, medication, fasting and stress affect our metabolism and well being. He isn’t really a low carb doctor. I’d say he’s more of a real food doctor.

You can get a copy on Ebay for less than $2.00.

(Ang ) #24

:+1: TY @CarlKeller Yeah, I see there’s some video’s out there too, sounds like a great way to spend the morning :slight_smile:

(Steaks b4 cakes! 🥩🥂) #25

I’m fat adapted and I’m STILL always thinking about food! :joy::pig_nose::see_no_evil::yum:

(Scott) #26

I only think about the Macadamia nuts. I can hear them in the bag saying EAAT MEEEE

(Steaks b4 cakes! 🥩🥂) #27

Hah! I wish it was just the nuts for me! I read about all these people who have reduced appetite and think about food less and that’s just not me! :laughing:

#28

I only think about food when I’m in the house or when I’m out hiking thinking about what kind of food I should take backpacking. Ive never done a keto backpacking trip and I’m getting excited planning for it in my head. I’m also trying out fat bombs and high fat coffee drinks for the first time and I’m loving them :o)

(Steaks b4 cakes! 🥩🥂) #29

Very nice! Enjoy the fat bombs! :yum:
I love planning my future meals too! Do you use Instagram at all? I follow a girl called Ketogenic Girl, she does a lot of hiking and features quite a few different food ideas for when you’re on the go!

#30

Ive seen Ketogenic Girl but I’m not following her. I have my meals in an excel spreadsheet, it’s the only time I track macros including salt and calories. For now I’m thinking I will be going stoveless so no cooking.