Dr. Adam Nally rants against long fasting, Dr. Fung

#47

Exactly! Finally somebody said it!! Hard to be objective when one promotes product sales. Think big food, big pharma - none of them are interested in anyone not eating or getting sick from eating (the wrong stuff).

(Doug) #48

Unless I really am sweating out water, when I’m fasting I don’t feel the need to drink all that much. Couple cups of coffee in the morning, and maybe a glass or two of water the rest of the day. The "drink lots of water to help flush out toxins" makes a gut-basic sense to me, but I wonder how much of a demonstrable bad effect there will be with drinking less, if any.

When eating salt and carbohydrates, I get thirsty and drink/retain a bunch of water. Keto and fasting gets rid of it, and as long as the urine does not get dark, as long as there’s no thirst or feeling bad going on, what the heck?

(Chris) #49

RE: flushing out toxins

I hired my liver for that! Drink when thirsty!

(Tim W) #50

Good point. Always have to remember the incentives that are at play, especially since we humans are so good at convincing ourselves that WE are above being influenced by those many factors that we think we can ignore, things like advertising, the opinions of others, what makes us money.

(Sharon A Peters) #51

I find Fung clear almost to a fault on the subject of keto, T2D, obesity, and fasting. He has never been one to hand out medals for fasting, especially to commemorate some macho endurance fasting. All is for health; nothing is for fame or bragging rights.

(Erin Macfarland ) #52

That is funny @Dread1840 :joy:

Phinney thinks Long term fasting no benefits
(Dawn) #53

I have this same fear that I will have to do extended fasting the rest of my life in order to keep the weight off. I don’t mind fasting with IF or even alternate day, but it seems like a lot to have to do this forever.

(VLC.MD) #54

Once your weight is good, the metabolic flexibility makes things easier.

(Dawn) #55

Thank you so much. I am struggling with my weight loss even with fasting. I keep gaining the weight back after each of my extended fasts. Going in big circles. Trying to figure out what is going wrong in my re-feeds that is causing so much weight to come back. I am starting to worry that maybe fasting isn’t the answer…which would leave me hopeless

(VLC.MD) #56

is there a topic where you outline what you are doing ?

#57

I so relate to your struggle. I finally feel I might be on to something. First of all, I am tracking food in Chronometer and it is interesting to see how easy it would be to overeat the fat sources, especially the liquid ones (heavy whipping cream). It’s just something to be aware of - I need to measure so I don’t accidentally over feed myself. Yet I am also listening to my hunger, not letting calories guide my diet.

Second is being consistent with fasting. I always enjoyed the dramatic blood-sugar and weight-loss results of a long extended fast (up to 7 days for me), but then I would let several days/weeks go by without any shorter fasts. I can’t let too much time go by between fasts, my blood glucose climbs and the weight comes right back. I think there is sweet spot somewhere in there where I can do a rare long fast with a couple of 36-42 hour fasts a week, and stick with two meals a day on the eating days. I imagine everyone has to play with this to find the right routine for them, and also may need to switch it up occasionally to keep the results coming.

(Karen Parrott) #58

Agree! I was taught in Medial Technology School that the 2nd most common reason for ER admits were BP related issues. Truth. Working nights that first year and we were all trained on the Chemistry tests even though my primary department was Hematology.

Dehydration, people messing with their own medications very common. Many a 2am phone call to the ER for potassium levels.

(Dawn) #59

Thanks Darcy. I am learning that lesson the hard way. Thank you so much for the insight. I have decided not to allow more than three days of a refeed cycle. And I will continue to IF during that time. What seems to be working for me now is 5 days fasting and 2 days eating. I save my eating for the weekends in order to be able to participate in social events. I also keep everything keto. No more eating outside of the plan

#60

It’s also possible that Dr. Nally is preaching to those who are not in the choir. We here on the forums seem to be intelligent, well-read, very thoughtful self-experimenters. I think his concerns about electrolytes and taking exogenous Ketones as a meal replacement are valid, but, raise your hand if you would undertake a Fast that way… I think we know better. Is it safer to warn those who need the warning? Probably.

Also, as for the sugar burner vs fat burner attempting fasting, part of the horrific feelings are probably carb-withdrawal as much as anything else. A fat adapted person should be able to go 18-24 hours between meals feeling nothing more than the occasional wave of hunger. A little salt or a tsp of coconut oil can make that “side effect” go away.

#61

Sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it goes.

#62

Agreed. I think Dr. Nally would agree too, and is in favor of the natural “fasting” that results from the satiety keto gives you.

(Doug) #63

I don’t think we can generalize about the severity of the feelings of fasting, even for carb-burners. Long before I had even heard of ketogenic eating, fat adaptation, etc., I went for 6 days without eating. This was in 1983. Yes, it was a big change, and there was boredom and hunger, there was also the fun of going into uncharted territory, and nothing even remotely resembling “horrific feelings.” I was fairly lean at that time, 6’ 2 1/2" or 1.9 meters and 183 lbs./83 kg.

Was there “carb withdrawal”? Maybe - there would have certainly been lower blood sugar after a while - but the whole experience was just of not eating, nothing like “withdrawal” and acute symptoms.

I’ve known several people who went more than a day without eating, and not on a planned basis. These are mountain climbers, hikers, off-road bicyclists, winter campers, etc., who ran out of food, got lost, couldn’t get back to civilization as fast as originally thought. Hungry as heck, yes, but I have yet to talk to a single person who really felt bad.

I think there will be individual, personal variation in how we respond to not eating, even regardless of body weight and fat content. If - for whatever reason - the body thinks that severe starvation and possibly imminent death is near, then it may clamp down on energy expenditure to such an extent that the experience is “awful” or “horrific.” I also think that will apply to a very small minority of us.

Ability to go 18-24 hours between meals - heck, I’d say this applies to all of us, fat-adapted or not, outside of infants and those with truly abnormal metabolic conditions.

#64

I think you’re right, but I definitely get some strong hunger pangs those first few days (luckily in waves that I can ride out). That’s why I want to try a 5-7 day fast next. I’m curious to see how it feels for the ghrelin to take a significant dive.

#65

That’s a great idea. Those first 2-3 days are likely to be the worst, but if you keep your electrolytes up (I am popping pink salt crystals under my tongue all day long!) you should really feel good once you get over that hump. And then after the fast, because your leptin signalling will have improved, you will have amazing appetite control.

(Norma Laming) #66

Yes I find it difficult now to eat more than one meal a day, to the extent that lunchtime invitations now cause a problem for me. But gradually after 24 hours, even though I won’t get ravenous, I do get colder and slower. I’ve listened to loads of talks by Megan Ramos and Jason Fung from which I gather that my metabolism should be gearing up, not down. I never feel the near euphoric benefits that some experience. I’d like to change the way my body reacts and perhaps I should eat more at other times, but I do find that difficult.