Phinney thinks Long term fasting no benefits

fasting
phinney
(Mark Rhodes) #29

and @OldDoug Some of us have speculated that being fat adapted allows us to bypass the need to get into ketosis and thus may enter autophagy sooner than sugar burners. I havn’t found a lab to test for autophages yet near me but I am very interested in this.

Seems to me that just getting into ketosis is not enough. Early in this WOE having HIGH BHB did not equate to high levels of lipolysis. My body made ketones but it had a difficult time using them efficiently. being adapted to using them efficiently I think we have greater access to lipolysis and the other health benefits.

I also speculate that repeated extended fasts may also train the body into the recognition that a refeed will be along shortly and that there is no reason to downshift metabolism. This is based on my experience with each successive fast I seem to get far better results other than survival mode.

#30

I’m so glad you posted this. I saw this information just a few days ago on a video and was wondering. What is the real time function of protiens in redundant skin after large weight loss? Isn’t this available non essential protiens to fuel our body? Any information you have will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

#31

Well, I really don’t know :sweat_smile:
If necessary I suppose that French speaking people will speak up loudly. We are known for being grumblers.

(Doug) #32

Mark, this stuff is very interesting. :slightly_smiling_face: I did not know that ketosis had anything specifically to do with autophagy, other than presumably occurring at the same time if one is burning fat. In reading about it, you are definitely right - ketones do stimulate at least one type of autophagy - called “chaperone-mediated autophagy.”

I’ve fasted 15 times or so, from 3 to 5 days, and just finished one of 10 days. I’ve never felt “low energy” and only once - on the third day of my very first fast (which went 4.5 days) - did I sense any “turning down of the thermostat,” cool feet one night. I am certain that we get used to fasting, and that we get better at it.

Autophagy apparently doesn’t occur at the same time and pace in all parts of the body. It increases greatly in mice after 24 hours of fasting and goes up a little more by 48 hours. I can’t find information on when it peaks in humans. I’d think we are certainly no ‘faster’ than mice in this respect, so I’m guessing our peak comes after 48 hours, but don’t know how much after.

(Mark Rhodes) #33

I’m currently taking the EdX program on autophagy and perhaps I will know more in 3 weeks :grin:. Best of my current knowledge there are three distinct types of autophagy. I also am very interested in apoptosis but have not really did a literature review of this and fasting.

I too have had no problems going past 72 or 144 hrs. In fact I think its easier than starting and stopping with OMAD and other IF. I do notice a very big increase in adrenaline on the 5th day. I am thinking in particular it is norephedrine but again, that’s suspicion.

Fung’s remarks are often based on the 1982 study of one individual who did a 40 day fast. This is where the 330% increase in HGH and 430% increase in autophagy comes from on the IDM. Could be we all have lesser or greater responses. Everyone does seem to agree that one needs to deplete glycogen and enter ketosis (likely for energy needs, primarily). As we here are already in ketosis it just seems that other timelines would be pushed up.

(VLC.MD) #34

Almost identical thread.

Phinney missed the mark on this blog post.
More misinformation than information.
/Sad

(Doug) #35

Cool, Mark. I bet we see an explosion in knowledge about autophagy in the coming years. I’m certainly sold on it - the prevention of neurodegenerative things and from what I’ve read a lessening of the chance of developing at least several cancers; hey, I’m in.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #36

Because protein is the only macronutrient that contains nitrogen. Carbohydrate and fat are made exclusively from carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Since your muscles are mostly protein, it is reasonable to worry that they are where the nitrogen is coming from. Whether future research will confirm this worry or not is a different matter.

I’ve watched a number of videos in which Dr. Phinney makes these same points. He claims, however, that his concerns are based on data from studies that so far have not been refuted, and that he will change his mind if someone comes up with better data. I know what Dr. Fung says about fasting, but I haven’t heard him produce any studies—perhaps that’s simply because I haven’t pursued the matter of fasting far enough. So let’s see the science. On what studies is Dr. Fung basing his enthusiasm for fasting? I already know which studies Dr. Phinney is referring to, and I’d like to compare the data from both sides of this debate.

#37

Unfortunately I think that studies on fasting are almost impossible because ethical review boards won’t allow them. There are even pretty short windows allowed for animals in fasting studies. It’s considered inhumane.

#38

Dr Fung doesn’t have studies, as a practicing physician he has cases. His license is on the line, if a patient following his directions gets sicker he is liable for malpractice. That’s why most doctors blindly follow whatever the established standard of care is.

It’s easy to stand at a podium espousing studies before an audience. It takes guts to take patients you’re responsible for through uncharted/unstudied waters.

Unless you’re a researcher, ultimately, all that matters is n=1. Studies can help us save some time by elucidating which tools may be more effective. But we can figure what works for us by trial and error. It’s easy enough to try fasting and see what benefits it bestows on n=1.

(VLC.MD) #39

I changed the thread title to something less inflammatory.

was: Long term fasting no benefits
now: Phinney thinks Long term fasting no benefits

@ianrobo - if you want me to change it back I will.

(ianrobo) #40

No issue

(VLC.MD) #41

@ianrobo - great thread BTW. Important to discuss these things. The science will never be complete on this topic. In the end, estimations and guesses will always be a part of human nutrition. Respected opinions by Phinney and Fung are needed to further understanding of human nutrition. Thankfully, there are professionals trying different things to help people improve their health. Especially because there are many types of people with many MANY different reasons why they need to lose weight. Phinney knows alot about science. ALOT. And Fung knows alot about bringing science to actual people sitting in front of you wanting help. If you just rely upon Science, you end up missing the important piece … THE PATIENT. I’d go to Dr. Fung to lose weight and if I needed a Keto experiment done, I’d ask Phinney to run it.

Let’s have a group hug

LCHF / Keto / IF / EF are all on the same team in many respects.

(Nicole Sawchuk) #42

Thank you everyone for your input onto this topic. I posted this on another fasting FB group and got kicked out because I dared question Dr Fung. Its weird because I religiously follow Dr Fung and fasting has given me my life back! I just wanted to have a scientific discussion and hear everyone’s opinions because I continually want to learn more and understand other points of view. There was no explanation why I was removed. It felt like I got dumped! But that’s life and its nothing to dwell on.

This respectful discussion here showed me there is still so much to learn and talking about the science and everyone’s theories is valuable! I will continue fasting as my body sees fit and will continue trying to understanding the science behind it all!

Thanks again!

(Steve) #43

I second Nicole’s sentiment.
Very interesting discussion and something I hoped would happen when I first saw a tweet about this.

(Doug) #44

True, Madeleine. I wonder if human trials will increase, what with the interest in autophagy as treatment/prevention for disease.

Most of the studies I’ve seen deal with mice - where autophagy is really kicking in as we get to 24 hours fasted, and further increases at 48 hours. That time window is pretty good size, I think - if a mouse doesn’t eat for 2 days, it doesn’t have much time left.

(Bunny) #45

Extended Fasting EF does not look good for Weight Loss because it can cause “ADRENAL STRESS” or fatigue and cause excessive Cortisol spiking that will block fat oxidation because the entire homeostatic function of the body is kicked into survival mode (body is trying to protect internal organs from external predation utilizing fat) and holds on to the fat!

If the goal is AUTOPHAGY then that is a whole different animal!

One must cognizant that Cortisol is the number #1 fat blocking hormone!

Look at the Cortisol spiking pattern?

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(Doug) #46

Bunny, what is the actual risk of that, though? No doubt there “can” be problems - there are billions of people on earth, and no big trick to find cases where extended fasting isn’t good and isn’t indicated.

I think if one’s body is going into ‘survival mode’ then one will be aware of it - feeling very low energy and likely pretty darn crappy.

Just finished a 10 day fast, and I could feel the fat going away. Between days 4-6, 6-8, and 8-10, my pants felt differently when I put them on, and by pinching the fat around my middle it was obvious that things were changing and shrinking.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #47

Indeed, @carl, as you probably know, Phinney has openly scoffed at the existence of “autophagy.” While @richard is far more knowledgeable about the science than I probably ever will be (and his detailed replies getting into the weeds are much appreciated), I respect Phinney enough to take him seriously on this issue.

If one of the fathers of the ketogenic lifestyle opposes extended fasting, I think I’d be mad to dismiss his view out of hand. I’ve been meaning to try EF for some time, but Phinney’s view has remained at the back of my mind.

Of course if people don’t eat for several days at a time, they’ll lose weight. And I’m aware of many spiritual traditions in which fasting takes place sometimes for days or weeks at a time. So maybe it’s healthy, maybe it’s not. According to Phinney, we don’t have RCTs to support EF at this point.

Did humans evolve to frequently fast for days or weeks at a time? That’s a very different question, as Phinney points out, from “Can we survive fasting for days or weeks at a time?” Were our ancestors frequently going through periods of starvation? I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not. You can imagine both scenarios being true.

I reserve judgment on this issue and, while I may try EF, it seems as if it’s a trend without sufficient scientific evidence at this moment to prove that it’s a healthy long-term strategy.

Then again, I’m one of the biggest heretics on this forum! :wink:

(Bunny) #48

Yes, there will be some weight loss with EF (depending how long you fast?) but the problem is with conceptualizations, goals or objectives?

Somebody with more excessive body fat and in poor metabolic condition would not be capable of achieving what you have done!

I really do not think people really understand how powerful Cortisol riding on Adrenal is!

Intermittent Fasting or IF tricks the body into not trip hammering that survival mode mechanism as much! (as you can see in the chart from my previous post in this thread)

Too much Cortisol will block Human Growth Hormone or HGH (the most powerful fat burning hormone that exists in your body) from doing its thing!

Note: It (EF) will also cause fat to more specifically populate around internal organs also. That is why you want to do EF on rare occasions for the purposes of AUTOPHAGY!