Confusing results zero carb

(Kerri Hines) #61

What you are experiencing is exactly as Phinney describes as what you should expect to happen if you’re fit and athletic and fat adapted.

" I quizzed Steve about the background to his optimal ketosis chart. He said it was based on two studies, one with cyclists who the adapted to ketosis over a period of six weeks and another ketogenic weight loss study. In both cases these ‘optimal ketone levels’ (i.e. between 1.5 to 3.0mmol/L) were observed in people who were transitioning into a state of nutritional ketosis.

Since the publication of this chart in the Art and Science books, Phinney has noted that well trained athletes who are long term fat adapted (e.g. the low carb athletes in the FASTER study[10]) actually show lower levels of ketones than might be expected. It appears that over time many people, particularly athletes, move beyond simple keto adaption and are able to utilise fat as fuel even more efficiently and their ketone levels reduce further.

Metabolically flexible people are able to access and burn fat efficiently and hence only release free fatty acids or ketones into the bloodstream when they need the energy. If you’re metabolically healthy and can call on your fat stores as required there’s no need to be walking around with super high levels of glucose or ketones.

(Erin Macfarland ) #62

Oh that’s a great excerpt! Thanks!

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #63

Yes, that is an interesting and relevant excerpt. What’s that from?

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #64

I’m kind of shocked at the BF%. It’s not really my business, so forgive me for saying it, but I thought that was considered unsafe and unsustainable and would typically cause amenorrhea. So while it’s absolutely your choice, I would be unsurprised if getting more nutrient dense food at ad libitum levels could cause actual fat gain. Your body is probably fighting against you here. If you really want to stick to those levels for athletic or other reasons, you probably actually have to cut protein.

#65

Everyone is different, but @amber is correct, BF% that low in women can be associated with amenorrhea, but I would think that even before that point sex hormones have been disrupted in such a way that the body is already fighting against lower BF% and deliberately redirecting calories into adipose tissue.

(Kerri Hines) #66

It’s from this.


Which was what I was directing to in the link I posted above where @richard had started a discussion about it.

(Erin Macfarland ) #67

Amber you are right, my body fat is very low, and I am experiencing amenorrhea. I was afraid to bring this up because there seems to be a lot of judgement within the ZC community that their way is the best way even if it doesn’t seem things are working. As a side note, I previously did keto for about 16 months, from the beginning of 2015 to spring of 2016. I didn’t know nearly as much as I do now, and I ended up getting to 6% body fat. Granted during that time, I went through some very stressful periods that further compromised my appetite. And I kept up with a very high level of activity. I had to regain weight and body fat after that, it took a while for my cycle to return. I started keto again this past September, with a much more balanced approach. I love how I feel, and ZC has been something I have been interested in to try and resolve some of the issues I had struggled with on keto, namely strong cravings, and digestive issues. But now my cycle is MIA again, I am keeping close tabs on my BF because I tend to get very lean on keto despite adequate caloric intake. I agree with you that my body is fighting to hold onto energy. I have began to experience symptoms of what I think are low leptin levels again- very strong hunger signals, cold extremities. After getting so lean previously, once I started in on the process of regaining weight, the hunger was unbelievable. I could eat probably 5000 calories and still not be full. So when I cast a line out into the ZC community to ask why I am still hungry after eating 3 pounds of meat, I feel like I get a lot of judgement that I am doing something wrong. People tend to be kind of self righteous (except for you, I see you are much more moderate and measured in your approach) and I find myself flustered that there is no useful feedback for me. I would like to keep on keto indefinitely because I do have family history of diabetes and other related diseases that benefit from limiting carbs. But my hormones are indeed affected by my low body fat. How do I attend to my hormonal health while doing something like ZC? There seems to be very little information regarding women in relation to keto, especially athletic women on keto. All these studies are done on men and don’t address the specific needs of women. I really value your feedback because you are very subtle and well informed. And you’re a woman :slight_smile:

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #68

I’m so glad you feel safe talking about this here. I feel honoured, truly.

So, I’m trying to understand your goals. Are you OK with the idea of gaining some fat, up to say, for example, 18-20%? That could well happen if you kept eating to appetite, and your ketosis level might go down, as it has been, while you’re gaining. I’m pretty confident the gain would stop once you reached a more reproductively optimal level of fat.

(Erin Macfarland ) #69

This is probably the most helpful article I’ve read addressing all the variables I’ve been so confused about!

(Alex Dipego) #70

I’m curious here in regards to gaining on keto or even ZC.

I feels hard to actually gain actual weight not just hold water here and there. And this is just me speculating the need to get to a hormonal level where the person is optimized/recovered male or female. So wouldn’t weight gain be the actual goal here for someone at this level? I’m implying here doing what happened back in the day but small “binges” of fruit essentially berries to trigger the storage hormone, or a look at types of fat and an increase of fat.

I’m very curious as on ZC I’m good with my lb of meat with some eggs and that’s it. I’m not starving either.

(Erin Macfarland ) #71

Ideally, as an athlete, I’d like to stay pretty lean since of course I’m faster that way. However I understand there are trade offs when trying to maintain such a low body fat percentage. Things like less than ideal hormonal health, low estrogen and progesterone (when I had my hormones tested at my leanest point of my previous foray into keto I had the profile of a post menopausal woman, at the age of 35.) my husband of course is concerned about things like fractures from the low estrogen. I’m not sure how to balance the hormones on keto or ZC quite frankly. To regain the weight I’d lost before I had to do a refeeding protocol that was absolutely awful. I felt like death! I had to basically cut down on physical activity while eating energy dense foods. I’m assuming if I wanted to mitigate the effects of low body fat I would just need to, as you say, eat keto or ZC ad libitum.

#72

Unfortunately the article doesn’t explain anything other than the obvious to resolve the problem, but I linked it for the first reason that it is the low levels of GnRH and LH hormones that you might be able to manipulate independently of eating ZC ad libitum.

  1. Amenorrhea is caused by low levels of GnRH and LH hormones.
  2. The level of body fat needed in order for normal menstrual function can differ.

I mention this because the analog in men is despite some having high total testosterone levels, their free testosterone is either bound up with Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) and/or being converted to estradiol the main female sex hormone! Fortunately there are protocols, nutraceuticals and pharmaceuticals that can address the issue in men.

(Erin Macfarland ) #73

Been tweaking my approach the last couple of days shifting away from meat during the day and doing more fat, so rather than the fatty steaks I was having around noon I have been doing something like a hard boiled egg or two with lots of bacon fat or broth blended with butter. Seemed to help my BG this afternoon was 73 with ketones back to .9 and I feel the increase in mental energy and focus I usually experience with the higher ketone readings. So, still experimenting!

(Erin Macfarland ) #74

In response to the claim that vegetables harbor toxins, so we should avoid them accordingly, I keep coming back to this argument about why exposing ourselves to low doses of stressors actually makes us more robust. For example, exercise causes actual damage, tears, to our muscles, but our body then repairs that “damage” and builds stronger muscles. Being exposed to cold is a stressor but continued exposure makes our body more resilient to lower temperatures. So in relation to plant toxins, it stands to reason that ingesting low doses makes our bodies adapt and allows us to build stronger immune systems as a result. This is of course the reasoning behind homeopathy (whether or not you think it’s legit or not is another issue entirely!). My point is, the fact that plants contain toxins and that ingesting them is a stressor doesn’t preclude them as being inherently harmful to our health. Many things that are considered “stressors” to our bodies cause temporary harm or damage, but the repair and recovery from those exposures make us more robust. Here is a brief synopsis of the reasoning behind why plant toxins in small doses are considered by many to be beneficial:

   Hormesis, a non-linear dose-response relationship in which something such as a toxic heavy metal or ionizing radiation that is harmful at moderate to high doses may actually produce adaptive beneficial effects at low doses.  In other words, we don’t see a completely linear relationship between the dose of the potential toxin and a deleterious effect; rather we see a curve that looks something like a check-mark with the amount of a substance or radiation on the horizontal axis and some measure of damage on the vertical axis.

Hormesis is a byproduct of evolution. From the beginnings of life on earth, organisms have been exposed to potentially harsh conditions, with individual cells commonly exposed to toxic substances such as chemicals and radiation. In order to avoid extinction, organisms developed complex mechanisms to cope with the environmental hazards, including altering the synthesis of nucleic acids and proteins to activate pathways that protect against or repair damage.

I am not advocating one way is right and one is wrong. I think whatever works for an individual is what she or he should do. I just want to understand this particular reasoning behind the assertion that plants are toxic and that we should not ingest them. I find all these perspectives equally compelling and really appreciate all the feedback from the people here!

(Kel Ta) #75

DH Kiefer talks a lot about hormesis as a primary reason to keep food diversified. He also advocates carb backloading to help replenish glycogen (which not everyone agrees with).

I guess if you are a competitive athlete for your living keeping body fat percentage low would be part of the job? but if you are a recreational athlete it seems like finding hormonal health would be maybe more important and maybe worth a higher body fat percentage.

eating too much meat can spike insulin in my experience and make me hungrier while eating nutrient dense and higher fat has helped a lot- liver, bone broth with more fat, more eggs…I should add sockeye canned salmon with the bones also is a great natural “food supplement”

(Kerri Hines) #76

That’s an interesting thought. I’ve never considered it.
I do think that constant use of sanitizer and never being exposed to bacteria and such isn’t a good idea… I can understand there’s a potentially good argument for what your saying.
There’s definitely a part of me that keeps rationalizing eating veggies. It’s because I like them and I want to be able to eat them, they just do bad things to my poor belly. I go in phases where I start eating them again and in the back of my head I know I’m thinking “but they’re just veggies… they’re good for me right”? Every time I go back to cutting them out again and feel immediately better.
I don’t know what the answer is and I’m not sure what my opinion even is on the subject, but it is an interesting theory that I’ve never even considered before.

(Erin Macfarland ) #77

I am definitely not a pro athlete, but like to improve my performance as an “age grouper” . The issue I have with keto is that it drives my body fat levels low. I don’t over exercise (I have in the past for sure ) and have been more successful this time around in maintaining a healthier weight and higher energy intake than i did during my last time doing keto. But still, my body fat levels are low. I’m excited to be going to a well known keto friendly doc in the Denver area, Dr. Gerber, and I’m hoping they will help me see what my body is doing and how I can maintain that hormonal balance. I do feel good doing ZC but have been having some digestive issues, despite taking a good probiotic, bitters, and digestive enzymes. I find that by adding in some veggies with fat several nights per week has improved my stomach issues and made me feel a bit better overall. So my ZC approach is definitely not as strict as most of the people eating this way, but for me it works, and I still find their experience and advice helpful. On those days I have veggies I’m still eating at most 10 to 15 grams of total carbs which for me is very low. Before going ZC I was eating at least 50 g of carbs a day, and staying in ketosis. So I’m trying to find what works in regards to all of these factors, hormones, energy, athletic performance, digestion, mental focus…it’s a moving target!

#78

hmmm… interesting thought came to mind concerning ZC - stomach acid.

There’s some thought that stomach decreases with age although there’s some disagreement on that, but stomach acid is important for digesting meats, so stomach acid that’s too low, ie. pH is too high, can interfere with digestion that probiotics can’t resolve by themselves.

Veggies are digested in a high pH and meats in a lower pH and I think fat is neutral so it’s interesting that adding veggies helps your stomach issues which makes me wonder if part of your stomach issues are related to low stomach acid.

Adding good apple cider vinegar with “mother” (ACV) is acetic acid and includes some probiotics and would help to raise stomach acid and improve digestion of proteins/meats.

Just a thought…

(Erin Macfarland ) #79

I did mention above that I use bitters (thought to aid in meat digestion and regulating stomach acid), I do take ACV before each meal as well. And HCI which is also to aid digestion. There’s something about all the fatty meat I think that makes my stomach wonder what the hell I’m doing to it :joy:

(Alex Dipego) #80

HCL is to help with nutrient absorption. I’m curious though if ZC is changing that aspect as bioavailable nutrients in meat are much higher than veg. You may need more do to lower availability…

I know it’s anecdotal but my digestion seems more alive than before ZC. This could also be do to lower temp cooking and rarer meats.