Confusing results zero carb

(Erin Macfarland ) #41

Absolutely. I’m just going to keep tracking and reporting! The weird part is that in doing ZC I feel physically and mentally like I have when doing keto and fasting for longer periods (which isn’t that long for me, about 20 to 24 hours is my max). You explained this in your article on deeper ketosis without protein restriction. It is a feeling of high energy and mental focus, but in keto it was usually accompanied by a huge increase in appetite when resuming eating and then my energy would tank. With ZC I have the high energy and focus without the crash. It’s great, especially as a busy mother and runner. I can’t afford the crashes!

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #42

Yes! I’m not sure if this is what you mean, but I have a hunch that goes like this:

One might argue (as I’m going to on Thursday :blush:) that eating ketogenically is getting the benefits of fasting without the detriments of not eating. I know this isn’t totally original, but there is a significant faction of people who still think of ketogenic dieting as basically a medical hack that isn’t sustainable, because it’s “like starvation”, and that it is therefore “stressful” to the body.

It is my hunch, based almost entirely on anecdotes, with a little theorising thrown in, that eating just meat is even more beneficial: possibly more ketosis at a given level of protein, definitely more nutrient dense / less interference from anti-nutrients, and just all around more sustainable.

I know what you mean about not being able to afford the crash!

(Erin Macfarland ) #43

Keto and ZC allow us to follow our natural appetite too, which women especially are discouraged from doing so we keep ourselves weak and small. There’s no, “I’ll just have this salad…” then stuffing processed junk into our bodies later because of the deprivation, both physical and psychological. I can eat as much delicious fatty meat as I like, butter, eggs, and never feel deprived. My body’s signals are very clear to me and I listen to it, not some “expert.” That’s a powerful tool as a woman. I don’t need to look outside myself for someone to tell me how to semi starve myself so I’m socially acceptable . My body does exactly what it’s supposed to because my hormonal signals function as they should.

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #44

1000 likes!

Something I wanted to say in the post above, but didn’t: One deeply disempowering story about the sustainability of ketogenic diets is that they are bad for us fragile women and our hormones. It’s unsubstantiated and harmful. Women need to eat and they need to eat meat. There is probably nothing more enhancing of a woman’s fertility and strength than good animal-based nutrition!

(Genevieve Biggs) #45

This exchange is great!!! :smiley:

(Erin Macfarland ) #46

:muscle::muscle:

(Erin Macfarland ) #47

I love when I tell people I eat tons of fatty meat. They never believe me :joy:

(Erin Macfarland ) #48

But to further piss me off my BG this morning is 64 with ketones being .2 and I am just scratching my head.

(Erin Macfarland ) #49

Also seems my weight is trending upwards, as well as my body fat. I’m talking a pound or two but still, is this an indication something is off? Most people say they lose weight going ZC. I don’t need to lose but I don’t want to keep gaining, especially body fat since I’m an athlete. I’ve been trying to focus more on fats than protein but I still get incredibly hungry. Is this common? I know I read the lady who does the Amy Zero Carb Life blog said when she started she gained weight even though she felt good, then it fell off. I don’t know if I should keep eating this way if this trend continues?

(Larry Lustig) #50

If you believe that eating too much protein leads to elevated glucose via gluconeogenesis, could your increased protein consumption be the root of all your observations (decreased ketones, increased weight and body fat)?

(Erin Macfarland ) #51

But my BG has been trending downward, wouldn’t I see an increase in BG if I was experiencing increased gluconeogenisis from the protein? And I am probably consuming around 120 g per day, my weight is 128 at 5’7", body fat 12% and lean body mass is around 115. I’m not eating something like 200 grams of protein. I read in one of Amber’s posts too about gluconeogenisis more likely being demand driven and not supply driven . That excess protein isn’t necessarily immediately converted to glucose. Im just frustrated because I enjoy ZC but I’m experiencing these confusing reactions and I’m not sure how to respond.

(Larry Lustig) #52

Got the impression you were much higher – around a pound of net protein, which is 400 grams.

#53

So, taking these and others into consideration, this is more of an academic understanding except for weight trending upwards, but how are you sure it is body fat? Short of doing regular DEXA or BodPod tests, anything else is fairly unreliable, so it’s possible the weight is coming from anabolic processes.

As I’ve mentioned before and I think you agree, your BK are low because you’re using them and there’s currently no way to test for ketone generation only their presence in the bloodstream, but based on how you feel I think it’s a safe assumption that your body is generating and using all the ketones you need.

As far as BG being low, I think this is because glucose is demand driven through GNG despite your higher protein intake, so since the body prefers ketones and fatty acids when fat-adapted, the amino acids aren’t being used by GNG to raise BG when it already has everything it needs.

Personally, I think you’re a very metabolically healthy fat-adapted athlete and you’re comparing your results to people who are either normal or metabolically damaged.

I bet Dr. Stephen Phinney and Dr. Jeff Volek would love to get their hands on you!

#54

My lean body mass is close to yours, and I try to not go over 75 g.

I’m not suggesting you do what I do…we are all different snowflakes. Just want to share what I discovered works for me. If I exceed that, I gain weight…not muscle weight, but fat weight. And I start feeling very lethargic and hungry.

(Erin Macfarland ) #55

Hahaha! I think I am trying to express that there is VERY little information out there regarding athletes doing ZC (besides Charles Washington but he makes everyone else look bad! ) Especially as a woman, I am kind of an anomaly. Most ZC women are not nearly as active, and being very lean also throws a monkey wrench into the equation because my body is trying to fight losing weight and body fat, so my hormonal signals are influenced by those factors as well. I would love to be monitored by Phinney and Volek, it seems much of their research is centered around men. Interesting observation about the lower BG. As for my BF readings I use a very accurate scale called InBody. It also gives me a snapshot of inflammation and breaks down how my muscle mass is distributed , my BMR, and how much body fat I have. I am going to try some tweaks to see if there are some things causing these changes. I have continued to drink a couple of servings of Ultima electrolyte powder every day, so I will experiment with removing that (SOB!!) even though it does not appear to increase my appetite or affect BG readings. I also like to use some seasoning other than salt on my meat, so I will try and keep things simpler in that regard. I think I get a pretty decent amount of fat, so I don’t know how to incorporate more than I am in favor of less protein since I already use some butter or bacon fat to cook my already fatty meats. I love all the feed back though! It really helps me figure out what is going on. Since I feel like I am going through this kind of blindly…

(Erin Macfarland ) #56

How active are you? Do you do endurance sports or lift weights? I am not sure how to lower my protein intake while upping fat without getting nauseated. I can’t imagine using any more butter or bacon fat than I already do. And I always eat the fatty parts of my meat first. I guess I will give it a shot! It is a much harder proposition on ZC than on keto. On keto if you need to add more fat there are lots of yummy ways to do it. But straight animal fat is more difficult…I also don’t eat dairy other wise I would hit the heavy cream!

(Erin Macfarland ) #57

I would also love to have a snapshot of just how much protein 75 g is, in terms of total amounts of fatty meat. So, something like 75 g of protein in a day is 1.5 lb of fatty ribeye, something like that. It would help me gauge my intake!

#58

I’m not an endurance athlete. I did a lot of damage to joints and muscles in the past, and I look at my European family members who live way past 90 years old, thin and healthy, and wouldn’t know what to do in a gymnasium. I’m also one of those people while climbing the stairs, turn back and ask “where did you go?” And see my friend downstairs clutching the rails, panting (and they go to the gym!)

Science is a beautiful thing. The process of discovering optimal set points through the scientific process of n=1 is the best thing I think.

  1. define problem/opportunity for improvement
  2. set goal or target metric
  3. state hypothesis, if I do x I will achieve y, create hypothesis test plan
  4. conduct test
  5. measure result, did you achieve target in (2)?
  6. tweak test and repeat, or test complete with pass/fail result
(Erin Macfarland ) #59

Good advice. I’m a runner (not long distances! Mostly do 5 and 10 k races and my mileage is less than 20 per week) also lift weights a few times per week as well and have to active kids so I’m busy! I struggle most on ZC with the hunger. I did keto previously for over a year, got TOO lean (6% body fat) then had to regain some weight. This is my second time around and doing keto in a much more moderate way than I had before. ZC is compelling for me to test it against keto to see how I feel. There are some things I dislike about eating keto, I get tired sometimes after eating and have some digestive discomfort . So I’d like to figure out how to remedy those issues. My point is, since I’m very lean now and had previously gotten too thin in the past, I’m wondering if my hunger signals are much stronger to keep me from losing too much weight again. The idea of only eating that smaller amount of protein which is like three small beef burgers per day makes me starving just thinking about it! It doesn’t seem like enough . Yet whatever intake I have now seems to be indicative of some kind of imbalance . I’m not sure how long to go before I get to place where there’s some equilibrium.

(Alex Dipego) #60

I would also track water and sodium intake to see if that may be your flux of weight. If I drink less than 1.5 gal I retain an extra lb or so the following day.

I’m currently “cutting” on the ZC and that means I eat until full. I trend downwards through the week but their are days in between Monday to Monday that I’ll be up 3-4lbs purely from water intake that hasn’t dumped yet or bad sleep even. I hold weight for less than 5hrs of sleep and last week that happened 3 times.

It’s s learning process for sure. The devil is in the details.