Confusing results zero carb

(Erin Macfarland ) #21

My training ranges from 7 to 10 hours per week so definitely more volume than Amber is doing. That was my suspicion that my body is using ketones efficiently for energy.

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #22

I actually donā€™t need higher ketones for my brain health. Carnivory puts my brain issues (mood disorder) into complete remission even at lower levels of ketosis. At the time I wrote that, I was still in the mindset that consistently deeper ketosis was better.

I donā€™t think my results at that time had anything to do with fitness. Itā€™s just about glycogen depletion.

(Erin Macfarland ) #23

Gotcha. Iā€™m struggling to square away how good I feel on ZC with the lower ketone readings. Iā€™m getting varied measures when I test multiple times per day, sometimes .3 sometimes closer to 1. My body is clearly using them efficiently I think. My energy and mental clarity are excellent. Iā€™m just curious about the changes in blood levels. I also IF for at least 14 hours every day.

(Erin Macfarland ) #24

Is it possible my blood ketones are lower due to my increase in protein? My BG is excellent, usually mid 70s or lower. But Iā€™m getting lower ketone readings of .3 even later in the day, several hours after physical activity. Usually my levels would be at least .7 in the afternoon. Itā€™s a mystery I canā€™t figure out!

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #25

Yes, absolutely. How much more protein are you eating, and is dairy involved?

(Erin Macfarland ) #26

No dairy . Probably 2 to 3 lbs of fatty meat per day. Previously on my regular keto foods I was probably eating closer to a pound or so. Iā€™m very very lean and do lots of activity so my thought was the increase in protein wouldnā€™t affect me like it would some one who isnā€™t as lean and is more sedentary. Iā€™m wondering if my body is utilizing the ketones more efficiently since it is now lacking any carbohydrates. I read your article about increasing ketone levels by including HIIT type exercise, but I do that already. Is there something I could try to bring them back up or are they probably fine? Maybe it takes time to get higher readings after adjusting from keto to ZC. Like when someone first starts keto from a carb centered diet.

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #27

I missed this earlier, but I think itā€™s an excellent point and I agree with you and @richard 100%.

If you measure something that has a rate in and a rate out, you canā€™t attribute a change in levels to one or the other.

Iā€™ve argued the same about blood sugar as a poor proxy for GNG and about cortisol levels as poor proxy for cortisol production. On a ketogenic diet, cortisol production actually goes down, but blood levels go up, because recycling is upregulated.

What we care about in ketones is use in cells, and you just canā€™t know that very specifically from blood levels, though there must be some correlation. From what I understand, breath acetone is a closer proxy than blood BOHB. What would be an ideal measure, IMO, is respiratory quotient (RQ). Thatā€™s actually a measure of fat burning vs. glucose burning. I hate spoiling my own posts, so I wonā€™t say more, but I have one on this topic in the works.

(Kerri Hines) #28

What you are describing is explained very well in the article youā€™ll find discussed here.

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #29

Well, I donā€™t know the answer about whether you are using ketones less or not. Itā€™s very plausible.

So the questions I would pose are:

  1. Do you feel better or worse or the same?
  2. How are your actual goals affected?
  3. Assuming you are eating to appetite, can you choose fattier meats or otherwise eat less protein and more fat and still feel satiated?

To elaborate on the first two, no one wants to be in ketosis just to be in ketosis. We all want it for some reason that we can measure to a greater or lesser degree. For example weight/fatness, mental clarity, and the presence or absence of clinical symptoms of disease are ones we can often see the direct effects fairly quickly for. General longevity, while a scientifically plausible effect of ketosis, is speculation, and we canā€™t know how weā€™re doing on that except by biomarkers we believe are correlated. I guess what Iā€™m trying to say is, it might reduce your ketosis, but do you care?

On the last point, Iā€™m wondering why you are hitting those protein levels. I know others have said that 3-4 pounds a day is normal on ZC, but Iā€™ve personally never heard of anyone eating more than about 2, unless weā€™re talking some special occasion.

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #30

Itā€™s definitely a better measure than urine acetoacetate! Iā€™m sorry to keep tooting my own horn, but Iā€™ve written about that, too.

To quote myself:

One of the cheapest and easiest ways to measure ketones is to use ketone test strips, e.g. Ketostix. Ketone test strips use a chemical reaction to measure acetoacetate (see below), usually in urine, though the same method can be used for blood. (Not to be confused with the blood strips used at home for beta-hydroxybutyrate.) However, acetoacetate test strips are of limited usefulness. For one thing, urine concentrations are affected by dilution, which means that they are affected by how much you drink.

But the problem is deeper than that. Acetoacetate is only one of the three ketone bodies (see below). Initially, when you start a ketogenic diet, acetoacetate will make up about half of the circulating ketones [1], but when you are keto-adapted, it makes up only about 20% of the ketone bodies in circulation (see below). Morover, the sensitivity of the strips is a little lower than optimal for our purposes. They register negative unless the concentration is quite high.

So, it is not uncommon for a keto-adapted person to measure negative for acetoacetate.

But what Iā€™m saying in this thread is that breath acetone is apparently a better proxy for cellular uptake than blood beta-hydroxybutyrate. It tracks more closely to actual use (or at least thatā€™s what the Ketonix manufactures claimā€”I didnā€™t look at the studies they cite, but Iā€™m inclined to believe it).

ETA: I see this is also mentioned by @carolT in the same thread and she quotes Marty Kendall quoting the study.

(Erin Macfarland ) #31

I feel great, definitely experiencing an increase in mental clarity and overall energy, less digestive issues. I am eating very fatty meats usually cooked in butter or bacon fat. The only other issue has been a lack of satiation after dinner, despite a decent amount of food throughout the day. I understand this is common and usually subsides. I know ketone levels arenā€™t the end all be all, but itā€™s such a contrast from my previous levels that I canā€™t help but try and understand whatā€™s going on. I want to keep inflammation low and also try and isolate some foods that I suspected were bothering me on keto. Like nuts. So my goals are overall health, support for my level of physical activity, good energy and lack of irritating symptoms like getting tired after meals or digestive discomfort . So I guess I will keep on going and see if anything changes over time. My BG is the best Iā€™ve seen it so thatā€™s an indication something is working!

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #32

Very interestingā€”all of it!

And yeah, understanding whatā€™s going on Iā€™m totally on board with. Sometimes I get ranty and itā€™s not at you in particular. In fact, itā€™s often more just me getting my thoughts straight. :slight_smile:

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #33

Also, this result you are seeing, if Iā€™m understanding correctly: lower BG and lower BOHB, thatā€™s super interesting to me.

Some people think itā€™s the ratio thatā€™s important. I donā€™t have enough knowledge to speak to that, but Iā€™m curious: do you know if the ratio is the same or different?

Still, I keep going back to the level ā‰  use problem, though. Even blood sugar going down could indicate less produced or more used. How to know?

(Kerri Hines) #34

Great info!
I was thinking more about the parts referencing level of fitness and ability to use ketones leaving fewer behind in the blood.

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #35

Yeah, sorry, I misinterpreted your quote as being more centered on the pee. Heh.

Very cool. Thank you!

(Erin Macfarland ) #36

Iā€™m not trying to be neurotic. I hate neurotic people ! Hahaā€¦I just find the biological processes behind all of this so fascinating and clearly my body is doing something different with the energy itā€™s receiving. I also want to put my experience out there for others who are considering the same approach . It helps to have as much info as you can get going into this sort of endeavor. Particularly as an athlete there is a dearth of resources regarding ZC and maintaining high levels of activity. My needs are much different than someone who is sedentary.

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #37

:cry: Iā€™m only a little bit neurotic and only sometimesā€¦

(Erin Macfarland ) #38

This is my thought. Iā€™m using them so not as much spilling into the blood. And the lower BG levels coupled with lower ketone levels confuses me. Someone posted a chart from a doctor that created a reference for BG readings and their ketone correlation. It suggested with my BG levels my keontes would be around 1. But that chart was not based on someone doing ZC while doing a lot of running and weights. So, Iā€™m trying to forge a path here and provide some data about whatā€™s happening as I experiment.

(Erin Macfarland ) #39

I was making a joke because all of us here are most definitely some kind of neurotic even if we pretend not to be! :wink:

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #40

I know there is a correlation between blood sugar and blood ketones, but itā€™s got to be more complex than that, otherwise the cancer community wouldnā€™t be talking about their ratio. I need to learn more about it!