Gotcha. I’m struggling to square away how good I feel on ZC with the lower ketone readings. I’m getting varied measures when I test multiple times per day, sometimes .3 sometimes closer to 1. My body is clearly using them efficiently I think. My energy and mental clarity are excellent. I’m just curious about the changes in blood levels. I also IF for at least 14 hours every day.
Confusing results zero carb
Emacfarland
(Erin Macfarland )
#24
Is it possible my blood ketones are lower due to my increase in protein? My BG is excellent, usually mid 70s or lower. But I’m getting lower ketone readings of .3 even later in the day, several hours after physical activity. Usually my levels would be at least .7 in the afternoon. It’s a mystery I can’t figure out!
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#25
Yes, absolutely. How much more protein are you eating, and is dairy involved?
Emacfarland
(Erin Macfarland )
#26
No dairy . Probably 2 to 3 lbs of fatty meat per day. Previously on my regular keto foods I was probably eating closer to a pound or so. I’m very very lean and do lots of activity so my thought was the increase in protein wouldn’t affect me like it would some one who isn’t as lean and is more sedentary. I’m wondering if my body is utilizing the ketones more efficiently since it is now lacking any carbohydrates. I read your article about increasing ketone levels by including HIIT type exercise, but I do that already. Is there something I could try to bring them back up or are they probably fine? Maybe it takes time to get higher readings after adjusting from keto to ZC. Like when someone first starts keto from a carb centered diet.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#27
I missed this earlier, but I think it’s an excellent point and I agree with you and @richard 100%.
If you measure something that has a rate in and a rate out, you can’t attribute a change in levels to one or the other.
I’ve argued the same about blood sugar as a poor proxy for GNG and about cortisol levels as poor proxy for cortisol production. On a ketogenic diet, cortisol production actually goes down, but blood levels go up, because recycling is upregulated.
What we care about in ketones is use in cells, and you just can’t know that very specifically from blood levels, though there must be some correlation. From what I understand, breath acetone is a closer proxy than blood BOHB. What would be an ideal measure, IMO, is respiratory quotient (RQ). That’s actually a measure of fat burning vs. glucose burning. I hate spoiling my own posts, so I won’t say more, but I have one on this topic in the works.
Sunny_Bunny
(Kerri Hines)
#28
What you are describing is explained very well in the article you’ll find discussed here.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#29
Well, I don’t know the answer about whether you are using ketones less or not. It’s very plausible.
So the questions I would pose are:
- Do you feel better or worse or the same?
- How are your actual goals affected?
- Assuming you are eating to appetite, can you choose fattier meats or otherwise eat less protein and more fat and still feel satiated?
To elaborate on the first two, no one wants to be in ketosis just to be in ketosis. We all want it for some reason that we can measure to a greater or lesser degree. For example weight/fatness, mental clarity, and the presence or absence of clinical symptoms of disease are ones we can often see the direct effects fairly quickly for. General longevity, while a scientifically plausible effect of ketosis, is speculation, and we can’t know how we’re doing on that except by biomarkers we believe are correlated. I guess what I’m trying to say is, it might reduce your ketosis, but do you care?
On the last point, I’m wondering why you are hitting those protein levels. I know others have said that 3-4 pounds a day is normal on ZC, but I’ve personally never heard of anyone eating more than about 2, unless we’re talking some special occasion.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#30
It’s definitely a better measure than urine acetoacetate! I’m sorry to keep tooting my own horn, but I’ve written about that, too.
To quote myself:
One of the cheapest and easiest ways to measure ketones is to use ketone test strips, e.g. Ketostix. Ketone test strips use a chemical reaction to measure acetoacetate (see below), usually in urine, though the same method can be used for blood. (Not to be confused with the blood strips used at home for beta-hydroxybutyrate.) However, acetoacetate test strips are of limited usefulness. For one thing, urine concentrations are affected by dilution, which means that they are affected by how much you drink.
But the problem is deeper than that. Acetoacetate is only one of the three ketone bodies (see below). Initially, when you start a ketogenic diet, acetoacetate will make up about half of the circulating ketones [1], but when you are keto-adapted, it makes up only about 20% of the ketone bodies in circulation (see below). Morover, the sensitivity of the strips is a little lower than optimal for our purposes. They register negative unless the concentration is quite high.
So, it is not uncommon for a keto-adapted person to measure negative for acetoacetate.
But what I’m saying in this thread is that breath acetone is apparently a better proxy for cellular uptake than blood beta-hydroxybutyrate. It tracks more closely to actual use (or at least that’s what the Ketonix manufactures claim—I didn’t look at the studies they cite, but I’m inclined to believe it).
ETA: I see this is also mentioned by @carolT in the same thread and she quotes Marty Kendall quoting the study.
Emacfarland
(Erin Macfarland )
#31
I feel great, definitely experiencing an increase in mental clarity and overall energy, less digestive issues. I am eating very fatty meats usually cooked in butter or bacon fat. The only other issue has been a lack of satiation after dinner, despite a decent amount of food throughout the day. I understand this is common and usually subsides. I know ketone levels aren’t the end all be all, but it’s such a contrast from my previous levels that I can’t help but try and understand what’s going on. I want to keep inflammation low and also try and isolate some foods that I suspected were bothering me on keto. Like nuts. So my goals are overall health, support for my level of physical activity, good energy and lack of irritating symptoms like getting tired after meals or digestive discomfort . So I guess I will keep on going and see if anything changes over time. My BG is the best I’ve seen it so that’s an indication something is working!
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#32
Very interesting—all of it!
And yeah, understanding what’s going on I’m totally on board with. Sometimes I get ranty and it’s not at you in particular. In fact, it’s often more just me getting my thoughts straight. 
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#33
Also, this result you are seeing, if I’m understanding correctly: lower BG and lower BOHB, that’s super interesting to me.
Some people think it’s the ratio that’s important. I don’t have enough knowledge to speak to that, but I’m curious: do you know if the ratio is the same or different?
Still, I keep going back to the level ≠ use problem, though. Even blood sugar going down could indicate less produced or more used. How to know?
Sunny_Bunny
(Kerri Hines)
#34
Great info!
I was thinking more about the parts referencing level of fitness and ability to use ketones leaving fewer behind in the blood.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#35
Yeah, sorry, I misinterpreted your quote as being more centered on the pee. Heh.
Very cool. Thank you!
Emacfarland
(Erin Macfarland )
#36
I’m not trying to be neurotic. I hate neurotic people ! Haha…I just find the biological processes behind all of this so fascinating and clearly my body is doing something different with the energy it’s receiving. I also want to put my experience out there for others who are considering the same approach . It helps to have as much info as you can get going into this sort of endeavor. Particularly as an athlete there is a dearth of resources regarding ZC and maintaining high levels of activity. My needs are much different than someone who is sedentary.
I’m only a little bit neurotic and only sometimes…
Emacfarland
(Erin Macfarland )
#38
This is my thought. I’m using them so not as much spilling into the blood. And the lower BG levels coupled with lower ketone levels confuses me. Someone posted a chart from a doctor that created a reference for BG readings and their ketone correlation. It suggested with my BG levels my keontes would be around 1. But that chart was not based on someone doing ZC while doing a lot of running and weights. So, I’m trying to forge a path here and provide some data about what’s happening as I experiment.
Emacfarland
(Erin Macfarland )
#39
I was making a joke because all of us here are most definitely some kind of neurotic even if we pretend not to be! 
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#40
I know there is a correlation between blood sugar and blood ketones, but it’s got to be more complex than that, otherwise the cancer community wouldn’t be talking about their ratio. I need to learn more about it!
Emacfarland
(Erin Macfarland )
#41
Absolutely. I’m just going to keep tracking and reporting! The weird part is that in doing ZC I feel physically and mentally like I have when doing keto and fasting for longer periods (which isn’t that long for me, about 20 to 24 hours is my max). You explained this in your article on deeper ketosis without protein restriction. It is a feeling of high energy and mental focus, but in keto it was usually accompanied by a huge increase in appetite when resuming eating and then my energy would tank. With ZC I have the high energy and focus without the crash. It’s great, especially as a busy mother and runner. I can’t afford the crashes!
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#42
Yes! I’m not sure if this is what you mean, but I have a hunch that goes like this:
One might argue (as I’m going to on Thursday 
) that eating ketogenically is getting the benefits of fasting without the detriments of not eating. I know this isn’t totally original, but there is a significant faction of people who still think of ketogenic dieting as basically a medical hack that isn’t sustainable, because it’s “like starvation”, and that it is therefore “stressful” to the body.
It is my hunch, based almost entirely on anecdotes, with a little theorising thrown in, that eating just meat is even more beneficial: possibly more ketosis at a given level of protein, definitely more nutrient dense / less interference from anti-nutrients, and just all around more sustainable.
I know what you mean about not being able to afford the crash!