Carnivore Help! Bowels & Energy

(Ron) #61

Thank You. very good and informative video. Will keep that in the vault.:+1:

#62

This is a big part of the problem. Everyone wants research and studies. Labs and numbers. None of it matters. Do YOU feel good or not? That’s the only question that matters. The rest is speculation on what’s important and what isn’t. You’ll always find one set of people saying this works and another set on the other side. Ask a Vegan if they feel good and are getting enough protein, they’ll say Yes. That’s not to say they are or aren’t. Go with your intuition and own body’s ecology. We’re all so very different. You can waste hours getting involved in this back and too, tit for tat type baloney. Your body knows best. With of course the stipulation if you are fighting such a vicious disease as cancer. That requires medical care. But I’m very pleased to hear your success at managing it.

(Ron) #63

I prefer knowing if there are negative consequences through longevity as proven through past experiences and science research over whether it feels good in the moment. Personal experience of feels good in the moment have proven a disaster for me more than once.:worried:

#64

You’d be a rare case if you go get hooked on chicken wings or addicted to steak. You’ll never know 100% the negative consequences because like I say, there’s study’s on both sides. There’s still people that advocate low fat, are you going to follow that? You can have an idea. The ‘past experiences and science studies’ aren’t of you. I don’t care if a rat dies in a lab because he ate a ribeye. What does that correlate to me and my body. Us humans like to think we know everything. We don’t. We’re simple. And deaths on its way in one form or another people. That’s a hard fact. There’s no study disproving that. So you have a choice. You can read all the studies and research and try every abbreviated muddled up diet known to man worrying about food for the rest of your days, or you can find what works for you, keep it simple and get back to living free from fear. Get outside, do some exercise, see friends, show your family you love them. That’s more important than any study. Carnivore/ZC seems to give peolple back that freedom. If I feel good and I’m able to do what I enjoy in life outside of eating, then when that inevitable disease comes knocking then I know I did my best, felt fit and strong and made the most of the time I had rather than sitting staring at screens reading one person. I’ll leave it at that because it seems some people enjoy the fear cycle and the daily struggle. I enjoy a morning round of golf, studying for a career I enjoy and spending time with my little nephew to spend all day reading studies and worrying about food.

#65

But good luck to you all. I wish you the best of health on your journeys.

#66

And by the way that’s exactly my point. So who are you going to believe. Roll a dice? Pick one out of a hat? Or go with your gut and trust your body? I know which one seems most logical to me.

(Ron) #67

Well, for 50 years I ate according to dietary guidelines and enjoyed much of that time living in the moment as you are suggesting. For the last 10 years or so I have been fighting extreme obesity, diabetes, Neuropathy, heart arrhythmia conditions, and a host of other struggles caused from not worrying about what I eat. The ability to enjoy “living free” was reduced, for that matter walking was almost impossible.
I think that this gives me the right to research and study even if I didn’t enjoy the benefit of learning that I get from it. But since I do enjoy it I will consider that a joy outside of eating as you suggest one should do.
My research and “sitting staring at screens” helped me find the Ketogenic WOE that has reduced my weight considerably, put feeling back in my legs and feet, almost eliminated my unstable heart arrhythmia, and continues given me growing strength and energy that is allowing me to begin doing things again I had thought were forever gone. Continued research and studies are proving that my personal choice is a sound one and validates that choice as well as educating me on the causes of the damages created from my past, so as not to repeat.

I hope that this is true and you truly feel this way if you ever do find yourself in such a position. I fear it might be easier to say than actually do but wish you all the best of successes.
Since this thread is of Carnivore flavor and my posting was not at all directed towards that specifically, I will gracefully bow out.
As a side note however I will state that my eating choices favor a carnivore meal plan over 90% of the time and I enjoy it greatly.

#68

You’re completely missing my point and speaking from emotion rather than logic Ron. Everything you say I agree with. You ARE doing your best. You HAVE found something that works for you. Not because of studies and research but because of how you feel. Yes the info helped but you wouldn’t of carried on eating a certain way if you felt shit but a study said otherwise. That can be defined as insanity. I completely agree with everything you said. It sounds like you’re getting your vitality back because of your own trials and experiences. No one elses. I’ve had similar symptoms amongst others. There was plenty of research that said Veganism will restore my health. So I did it for 18 months and got worse. Many more attempts later I found myself on ZC and I’m getting my vitality back. But I’m only doing it because I myself feel the difference. Not because of anything else. No way would I choose to give up a Saturday night beer and pizza otherwise. If you want to spend the rest of your days reading about it then that’s your prerogative. But a big part of Carnivore is to let go of that fear. My point about the inevitable illness was that some are unavoidable. We’re all doing our best but we’re not immortal. If live to feel healthy in the present moment. Not the future. Much respect to you and I hope you continue to experience better health.

(Ron) #69

Yes you are right.

I did take offense and responded with some emotion. Your beginning statement here seemed as though things that I do and have done that have substantially improved my life were wrong and everyone should adapt and conform to your choice of lifestyle. You seemed to be implying that the time that I (and others) spend studying and learning is somehow less valuable and inferior to choices you made.
I do agree that if ones path is causing stress and drama in their journey then they should do what they can to alter this direction just as curing any other disease. But as I believe you will agree, journeys are individual and no ones path is going to serve someone else.

And would you consider someone that spent 3 months struggling with severe (without going into detail) reactions and “keto flu” due to underlying issues that landed him in the hospital and was directed by medical personnel to quit their chosen diet yet still chose to continue, to be in this category?
In fact. had it not been for the research and learned knowledge gained before hand would not be in the position of recovery they enjoy today. I suspect there are Two Dudes that appreciate and value the benefits of study and research also.
Respect to you also and the path you choose. Everyone has that same right. Enjoy that nephew. :golfing_man:

#70

Thanks for the well constructed measured reply Ron. I see your point. The research undoubtedly has its place. ‘None of it matters’ was spoken out of turn. I suppose I speak from a position where I’ve got lost and tangled up in it all trying to fit certain stereotypes rather than doing what I have found out through hard painful experiment to work for me as an individual. What we can both share is that we have found great health benefits from the Ketogenic woe and those curious reading this should do their own research and experimentation to know if it can do the same for them. I wouldn’t of had the energy to have such a debate with someone 12 months ago so this has been good. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings. I’ve learnt from them.

(Ron) #71

@oward12
You might enjoy this podcast as it does pertain to our discussion.
Have a great holiday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW6YYdPJapg

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #72

I feel wonderful when I eat a couple of dozen glazed doughnuts. I feel wonderful drinking several cans of sweetened soft drink. I feel wonderful when I eat a half-pound of pasta—the only thing that makes me feel bad is that I can’t eat more.

What makes me eat a well-formulated ketogenic diet is that I have seen research that supports it, and the mechanisms by which fructose and glucose damage the body have been sufficientlty worked out to be trustworthy—and extremely scary, for this sugar addict from a family in which diabetes runs rampant. Also, it turns out that the original study that purported to support the diet-heart hypothesis turns out to have reported only the data that support the hypothesis—when all 22 countries from which data were collected are included in the analysis, the purported association between saturated fat, cholesterol, and heart disease vanishes (interestingly, there is this very strong association between sugar and heart disease in the data that somehow got ignored . . . ). Furthermore, the very studies that were done to support this hypothesis turn out to show something quite different.

So from all that, I have some confidence that I am serving my body best by eating this way. But I feel just as good eating bacon as I do eating doughnuts, which is why I need the science to help me figure out what’s best.

Now, I asked you before for a reference to a study that supports your assertion that “a person’s protein requirements are dratically under-estimated.” I’m still waiting. @richard has some data indicating that there is an upper limit to how much protein may be safely consumed before we start poisoning ourselves, and Jeff Volek has data to show that protein above a certain amount stimulates insulin production. Where are your data? Show me the science, please.

#73

It’s complete BS that you feel ‘wonderful’ eating glazed doughnuts or soda. In the moment yes but 1, 2 or 24 hours later you don’t. Your body tells you otherwise. Furthermore you start to gain weight. Drastically different to a well formulated Ketogenic diet. We both know this is true but we also both know you take great pleasure in being the internet boffin on this forum who appears just to spout studies and names such as Volek and alike. So I’ll grant you that pleasure. Others who enjoy that kind of conversation can entertain you. My more reasoned discussion with Ron showed we both agreed with each other in many aspects and learnt a little. I’m not going to spend tireless hours trying to find a qoute somewhere to back up that I need X amount of protein. Because in doing so I’ll have to ignore several other studies saying I need Y or Z amount. My bodies got me covered. You can continue to follow whichever study is hot right now. But I’ll warn you. There’s another one on the way to contradict the one you currently believe. And another one after that and so on. So don’t get too attached. Enjoy your reading and thanks for your post.

#74

I’ll listen to this today thank you Ron. And thanks for your well wishes. All the best.

#75

I also wanted to thank you Ron. I was thinking as I was walking across Spain yesterday how nice it was for someone to come back with such a calm reasoned response rather than just going on the defensive and firing more bullets. I enjoyed our discussion and glad we came to a neutral ground. Thought I’d let you know.

(Ron) #76

I enjoyed it as well. Guess the holiday wish was somewhat misplaced but well wishes were definitely meant. Walking across Spain sounds enjoyably exhilarating.:smiley:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #77

Yes, but I only gain weight because I don’t exercise and I eat too much. If I only ate the doughnuts and not all the other things, I wouldn’t gain weight, right?

We both know that that is not the reason I am on this forum. I am here primarily for the community, but I also derive great pleasure from what I have learned about how the body works, and I enjoy sharing that and pointing out sources for people to read more. If you aren’t interested in Professor Volek’s work, you are not obliged to watch any of his lectures or read any of his books or studies, but other people might find them interesting, so I try to provide them. I am also rather indignant that we have been lied to by the authorities, who claim scientific rigor for the dietary guidelines, when there is no scientific support for them. The only way to counteract bad or missing science is to provide good science instead.

I’m still curious to know where you got your idea about protein, because I’d love to know more about the subject. But if you are not willing to share, then you’re not willing. That’s fine.

(TJ Borden) #78

Hmmm, tell me more about this approach. Wills bacon maple bars still count?

#79

I’d still love to know how we decide which recommendation to follow. If it’s by trial and self experimenting to find which one works best for you and your individuality then I rest my case.

I’ve listened to and read enough to know some people are surviving on minimal protein to fit keto percentage macros or avoid gluconeogenesis. That’s what my comment refered to. A very valid one. I don’t need to waste my time going through the back catalogue to play your games. I feel physically fantastic due to my own experimenting. That’s all that matters to me.

FYI a doughnut has been described as the perfect storm for an obesity epidemic. Low protein and with high measures fat and carbohydrate. You’ll probably want a study to back that up. Check the nutrition label. So you would put on weight my friend and you would suffer. You’re just making yourself look silly now. But I appreciate that in this instance.

(David) #80

Hi, I found this thread because of the gut issues you were having early in the carnivorous journey. I am the same, now 11 days in. If you are still around on the forum, an update would be really helpful. Thanks.