Cant get back into ketosis

newbies

(Ken) #35

Michael,

No, you can’t lose fat without being in some degree of Ketosis. Ketones production occurs within the context of Lipolysis, with Ketosis as a secondary energy pathway. As long as you’re lipolytic, you are producing ketones. Lipolysis drives ketosis, no matter what diet you are following, even the ones that rely on simple caloric restriction. Ketosis is just overemphasized, creating “Nutty Keto Dogma” rather that a wider understanding of nutrition within a fat based eating pattern. I’ve come to the belief that Ketosis in mainly demand driven much like gluconeogenesis, and should be thought of within the same secondary energy pathway context.

Chris, yes it’s entirely possible you’re adapted. If you are currently losing fat, your limited carb consumption is just fine. Plenty of people eat carbs on the Weekends are successful with fat loss.


(Chris) #36

Interesting ideas. Then what about the optimal ketones and how people feel better at higher ketones?


(Ken) #37

Ketones are merely an energy source because the brain cannot use fatty acids for fuel. They fluctuate. Your body also gets more efficient in using them. There are specific levels recommended by some to treat specific disorders, but that’s not really applicable. Follow the macros, limit carb intake to what you’re already doing and you should be fine.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #38

Ken,

You are always in ‘some degree of ketosis’ even if only basal. Just as you always have glucose in your blood even in so-called ‘deep ketosis’. Pretty much everyone gets to ‘some degree of ketosis’ by early morning as long as you haven’t eaten a big carb meal just before bed. Yet most people, including many on this forum whom you would consider ‘in ketosis’ full-time and very well fat adapted have glucose spikes and ketone lows upon awakening. The thing even has a name: The Dawn Effect.

Ketosis is not demand driven. It is carb-restriction driven. If you want to say that’s ‘demand driven’ I won’t quibble. I would not define it as a ‘secondary’ energy pathway, since I think that most human beings in the 2+ million years of our evolution spent 99% of their lives in ketosis. It has only been since the agricultural revolution of 6K years ago that carb food became concentrated enough to provide a usable alternative energy source.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #39

It might. It might also mean you have some degree of insulin resistance which is very common and a result of eating SAD. There are very many people on this forum who were previous to keto type 2 diabetic, prediabetic and insulin resistant and are no more. Many people were on diabetic medications and are no more. Yes, it’s fixable!


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #40

@240lbfatloss check out this. It’s not either/or. It’s way more complicated than you seem to think:


(Chris) #41

So going on keto fixes insulin resistance which then begs the question will ketone levels rise higher the longer your in ketosis since your insulin resistance is dropping?


(Ken) #42

Michael,
I’m not trying to “Quibble”, but there are a few points that need clarifying. When I say demand driven, I’m speaking of the body producing ketones rather than glucose within the context of a secondary energy pathway. All within the context of Lipolysis.
Ketosis vs. Gluconeogenesis.

When you speak of Mankind being in ketosis most of the time I agree. Mankind evolved on meat and fat. A much better term is Lipolytic, because ketosis is.only one part of fat based nutrition. The largest energy source during Lipolysis is fatty acids created when the lipid molecule breaks into that and glycerol, with the glycerol being used as the substrate for both ketosis and gluconeogenesis.
.
I was a fan of Loren Cordain starting about 20 years ago. My limited background in Anthropology is what helped me to easily accept the concept of fat based nutrition. I tend not to use the word Ketogenic for fat based nutrition as its not descriptive enough.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #43

Everyone’s specific experience differs in details due to multiple individual variables so no one necessarily experiences the exact same sequence or time frames. Generally speaking, however, after starting keto, blood ketone concentration tends to rise for a while. This is due to synthesis of ketones by the liver being out of synch with utilization of ketones by cells and organs. Because new energy pathways must be established, cells and organs do not use ketones or fatty acids efficiently at first. Thus, a lot of ketones being synthesized by the liver, acetoacetate, ends up just floating around in the blood stream doing nothing much. Some of the unused acetoacetate converts to β-hydroxybutyrate, which is its more stable ‘storage’ form, and some disintegrates into acetone and CO2. The β-hydroxybutyrate is what you measure with your blood tests.

What is called ‘fat adaptation’ refers to cells and organs learning how to use ketones/fat more efficiently. Thus over a period of weeks and months the synthesis of ketones by the liver becomes more in synch with their utilization by cells and organs. In addition, as cells and organs learn to utilize fatty acids their need for ketones decreases. So overall, blood ketone concentration tends to decrease since whatever acetoacetate being synthesized by the liver is being utilized immediately or very quickly and not stored as β-hydroxybutyrate.

But different strokes for different folks applies here. Some people never measure very high ketone concentrations, some do even well after being fat adapted. Some fluctuate up and down. There are so many variables involved you can find someone somewhere who exhibits every possibility.

Insulin plays a significant role here, of course. As insulin resistance decreases, one moves towards a healthy state of lowered glucose and insulin concentrations in the blood. It doesn’t necessarily translate to higher ketones, although for some it does. At least for a while.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #44

Hey, Ken,

I think you’ve introduced a very interesting issue, to wit: ketosis::gluconeogenesis relationship. My concern is that it’s going to disappear down a memory hole if left only in this topic. I think it warrants its own topic.

So here’s my proposal: please create a new topic (show me the science) stating your understanding of ketosis and gluconeogenesis in the context of overall lipolysis. Please cite any references you think would be helpful to the discussion. This will attract many more forum members to the ideas you have expressed here. Hopefully amoung them will be those who are well-informed and able to address the issue with more extensive knowledge and input. Thanks.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #45

@05147ae533bd743d8b98 You may find this article of interest:


(Chris) #46

Another question. I may start another thread. I ate at 5. I had 3 eggs, zucchini mushroom onion medley and 100g of chicken thighs. And some salami. I just checked and my blood glucose is 5.3 mmol. And my ketones are .3 mmol. Two hours after a meal is that normal? Also why am I nkt getting inyo ketosis its starting tk upset me even the first time doing keto I went into ketosis faster.


(Shane) #47

That might depend on how long the piece of string was that held that medley together.
And what your normal numbers are.
Yesterday I had a pan of bacon and 4 eggs for breakfast at about 3:30pm (2nd dot)
dinner of Beef mince, mushrooms and cream sauce (cream, gorgonzola and parmesan) around 4:45 (4th dot) (10g or so of carbs, I ate 200-300g of cream making the sauce). Someone bought home cocktail frankfurts and I ate 1/2 a dozen or so of them from around dinner time to 11:00pm and cheese too (maybe another 10g or so of carbs).
I peaked at 5.1 some hours later. The red lines are normal high and low limits for BG.
Graph shows noon to midnight yesterday.
BG%20little%20boy's%20and%20dinner

I used to produce heaps of ketones after meals and or BG spikes. BG of 5.3 would be fairly normal for me now after a meal like that and, though I only use pee sticks, I rarely show ketones after a meal now. Normally now only a day or 3 into a fast.


(Chris) #48

Ya I checked again 4 hours after my bg was 4.7 and ketones .5 so guess I hit keto just in time to sleep.and very back at .1 tomorrow lol


(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #49

I’ve had meals where my ketones actually go up after eating. I’d have to see about eating the same meal several nights in a row to see if its reproducible…


(mole person) #50

There is not a fruit or a vegetable to be had in any supermarket that humans ate during the bulk of our evolutionary history.

My rule for fruit is I only eat what I pick that is growing wild in summer. Yesterday I had a small handful of strawberries. The same the day before. The biggest ones are the size of my pinky thumbnail. The strawberries you can buy in a supermarket are the products of hundreds of years of human directed breeding.

I’m not saying never to eat them. I’m just saying that if you had two or three of those big strawberries 7 times in a two week period of a given year you are probably nearing the way our ancestors might have had them.

Then after that a couple of weeks of a few blueberries, then raspberries, then blackberries and then a few very small apples maybe.

After that it’s all meat and animal fat.

I don’t think the fruit is at all necessary or even healthy btw. I just don’t think that most people will suffer much negative effect if they honestly consume them in those sorts of quantities.

My “only eat what I pick wild” rule prevents any serious overconsumption.


(Consensus is Politics) #51

Lmao… well, I wouldn’t call it a punishment. Maybe it would feel like it to a carbonian, but not to the ketosapien. I hVe done 70+ hours fasts without even realizing it. Just wasnt eating or snacking, busy doing things to keep me preoccupied and not think about food. Easy peasy, lemon…

But when make that mistake and have a high carb meal, I simply go right back to keto foods, keep it as carb free as much as possible (steak and eggs, bacon, etc.) and remind the body this is real food. I rarey skip a day of ketone preduction. It might stop for a few hours while insulin is high, but it kicks back in pretty quickly for me.

Keto Vitae!


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #52

Addiction is a bitch. And I speak from experience, alas!

Depends. Your serum glucose should drop as soon as you stop eating carbohydrate and your insulin/glucagon ratio should drop back down with it. It is possible that something is wrong with your test strip, so your meter is not showing ketones. But if you are not eating carbohydrate but are still breathing in and out, your body has to be producing ketones.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #53

This.

It’s one of the reason that human populations that adopted agriculture experienced a notable decline in health. Archaeological evidence shows that the transition to agriculture results in shorter stature, bone deformation, tooth decay, and other chronic illnesses that hunter populations do not suffer from. See Michael Eades’ presentation on the health of the ancient Egyptians:


(Full Metal KETO AF) #54

If this is true I don’t understand your post title “Can’t get back into ketosis”.