“My ketosis is better than yours!”
This thought popped into my head. I saw soooo many times that some people said odd things as the real way. Deep ketosis, ketosis where we eat very simple (sometimes it reminds me to whole30 or something where even something resembling some not ideal food is bad), ketosis under a certain low carb intake, very long term ketosis… To me, ketosis is ketosis, I am in it or not but I don’t even care, I just want to feel and function right.
Yeah, I can’t stand egomaniacs either Shinita. Who needs that? Especially while spreading stupid untruths around the forum. 
So we’ve finally descended into Ketosis Shaming™ Nice work @anon81060937. 
Yeah that fake ketosis that my blood has been registering for the past 4 years you mean?
Y’all can correct me if I’m wrong:
I thought that we secrete insulin when we eat, but it’s what we eat that determines the amount of insulin secreted.
Once we eat, we stop metabolizing our own fat and process the food we’ve eaten. Once that food is processed, we go back into ketosis. Which is why we want to cut back on snacking and have many hours between meals.
The fact that you can still measure blood ketones after eating could still be residual from before the meal?
@VirginiaEdie My understanding is somewhat similar, except. Ketosis does not stop just because we eat something and insulin rises. The degree of insulin rise determines whether or not ketosis stops. There is always some base line amounts of glucose and insulin. Ketosis only stops if glucose/insulin rise past our personal ‘trigger point’, but if they stay below that, then no. Eating more than incidental carbs will generally spike glucose/insulin above the ‘trigger point’. Eating fats and proteins will not. In ketosis both insulin and glucagon balance with each other to continue keeping fat from adipose available.
This video by Butter Bob is instructive and not very technical:
Back to the original title of the thread:
Can you be Keto and get really fat?
That is a big fat YES!
Eat too much dietary fat, you will get fat because your not oxidizing it fast enough, oxidation or ketosis can’t remove them (especially the omega-6 fats exceeding 6% in calories) fast enough, and they start to build up in the the adipose tissue.
[1] “…The above results suggest that a vitamin B6 deficiency impairs omega-3 metabolism from alpha-linolenic acid to EPA and DHA, with the most pronounced effect on the production of DHA (Tsuge et al, 2000). …” …More
[2] “…Closely related omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids act as competing substrates for the same enzymes.[3] This outlines the importance of the proportion of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acids in a diet…” …More
[3] An Increase in the Omega-6/Omega-3 Fatty Acid Ratio Increases the Risk for Obesity
I eat over 80% of calories from fat and I’m 106lbs and losing weight. My body isn’t having any trouble oxidizing the fat.
You must be eating the proper amount of fat for your body type or adipose to muscle tissue ratio?.
What do you consider in volume 80% calories or over from fat in grams?
In other words what variety of foods in the amount of grams (weighed out) of fat they contain are equivalent 80% (or over?) of your calories?
Did he list somewhere what he was eating? Is “obesogenic rat chow” an allusion to a diet made up of processed keto labelled foods?
Could it not also be interpreted as increased thyroid hormone* sensitivity? Especially if Free T3 is low, Reverse T3 is low, Free T4 is low or normal, and Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) is normal?
Low carbohydrate eaters do present a, sometimes, unique physiological state.
Crikey, another misunderstanding puzzle to decipher.
It’s probably worth mentioning insulin when talking about eating, I think. Insulin is the regulator for the release of free fatty acids from adipose tissue that fuel ketosis in the liver.
So Mark can stay in nutritional ketosis while eating by controlling hunger and choosing foods with very low carbohydrate content, and low in insulin stimulating amino acids. Whereas someone else may eat some foods that do stimulate insulin release that shuts down ketogenisis and the linked lypolysis. Hence in that scenario, eating does stop ketosis.
You are both correct, as far as I can read, in your own interpretations that depend on what is being eaten, or on insulin release related to hunger and the anticipation of a meal.
Fasting longer than one 24hour period with a fat adapted metabolism, targeted carbohydrate eating (if done in a maintenance weight individual) coupled with eating in a designated limited time feeding window e.g not eating at all for 16 hours every 24hrs, and physical activity (for those able or motivated by a keto high) can, from my low glycemic slow absorption of the information, enhance nutritional ketosis.
I eat the PKD diet, so I only eat meat and animal fat (as well as organs and soft tissues). Nothing else. To get the PKD ratio of 2:1 fat:protein by weight I follow Paleo-Medicina’s instructions of having 1/3 of my plate content be white fat and 2/3’s red meat. I am not measuring. But I’m pretty sure its about a pound a day of food total. Not much more generally.
You are supposed to measure on this diet but mainly to get your diet tweaked so that your blood glucose and ketones fall into the ranges that Paleo-Medicina is targetting (70-80 glucose, 2-3 ketones). Mine are doing it naturally on the amount of food my body naturally wants to eat, so I’m very lucky.
Obesigenic rat chow here refers to a possibly higher omega 6 level and a definitely higher carb level.
The Woo seemed to speculate that he was at 9% TDEI protein. Which is deficient.
Me too. I’ve gained 27 lbs slowly over the late 1-1/2 years since an appendectomy. Prior to surgery I’d been keto for > 2 years . I still follow my same keto diet regime. My ketone levels vary from 0.5 in the morning to as high as 2.2. I can’t puzzle this out. My husband follows the same keto regime, bet has maintained weight loss ( no change) with the only difference between us — I am minus my appendix. We are into this lifestyle 4 years. I’d love to engage a keto doc, but cannot find one local. Any advice on a doc to assist, even if at a distance?
@kovack From what I’ve read on this forum for the better part of the past year since I joined, women generally seem to have more weight issues on keto than men do. I won’t hazard a guess as to why, although I have suspicions (testosterone and estrogen). Anyway, it seems that many women add IF and occasional longer fasts and doing so seems to help. @Momof5
Yes I totally agree with this.
I do this protocol from IDM (Dr. Jason Fung):
I extend it to 44 hours from the suggested 42 so that I can keep my 20:4 TMAD on my eating days. Also, Saturday’s usually end up being an OMAD for me of supper only (due to our son visiting, and me getting busy hanging out with him, etc).
I also do the monthly Zornfast that is a forum occasion and has its own thread monthly. It is named after one of our admins, Brenda Zorn, and she works at IDM with Dr.Jason Fung as well. It is the third Thursday of the month; however, I usually start on the Tuesday night and go for as long as I can -January’s one I did 91 hours. The idea is to do about 72 or more hours, but some people do less as well =).
I was keto for two years and my weight started to creep back up. I am 53 and perimenopausal so that may have had something to do with it.
I’ve seen several explanations as to why that happens:
we are eating too much dietary fat. Our body can’t utilize its fat stores if we are ingesting all the fat it needs.
No one wants to hear this, but it could be that once we are fat adapted we still need to worry about calories. Once we get past the fat stigma and make delicious keto meals, it is still possible to eat more than we need of those very palatable meals.
Carb creep. I think once we are keto for a while and relax our counting of macros, it is easy to let carbs creep back in. Dr. Eric Westman tells his patients to only use total carbs and not net carbs.
Keto desserts, dairy, and nuts I think make it quite easy to eat more carbs than we realize.
You might need more protein and less fat. Dr. Ted Naiman believes that we keep eating food until we get the amount of protein our body needs. Once the need is met, we get satiated. You may be eating more than you need overall because your protein is too low.
I ended up changing over to carnivore for a few reasons, but one of them was to lose my last few pounds. I find I am way more satiated on carnivore and can intermittent fast with more ease. Two meals a day is way more common for me now than 3MAD. But, I think if I was sticking to meat and just a few servings of low carb vegetables, no fancy keto meals, or nuts, I might have the same satisfaction as on carnivore. I may play with vegetables some time in the future. For now, I’m seeing if carnivore will help me with some joint issues.
Please let us know if you figure out something that helps.
I’m increasingly convinced by the protein leverage theory and its recent support by Dr Naiman’s book and clinical experience.
However, it seems like people can be metabolically fairly distinct, with outliers in various directions. Lots of keto people report weight loss when they turn up the fat and pull back on protein. - is that a counterexample to protein leverage? Some people report good results when adding back a little carb content - going from sub-20g up to around 50-100g. What does that mean for ketosis? (Is it perhaps “intermittent ketosis” if those carbs are isolated to one meal or otherwise time-restricted?)
Gut microbiome optimisation? There are variations between genetically identical twins, their diets and their resultant microbiome.
We are what our bugs eat.
