(โ๐๐ฃ๐๐ก๐๐ฃ๐๐ค๐๐๐ ๐ธ๐ โ๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐ ๐ฅ๐๐ ๐๐ ๐ง๐๐ โ๐๐๐๐๐ฅ ๐ ๐ ๐ ๐๐ ๐๐๐โ)
๐๐ณ ๐ ๐๐ฎ๐ ๐ณ๐ถ๐๐ฒ ๐๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ฟ๐ ๐๐ผ๐๐ป๐ด๐ฒ๐ฟ, ๐โ๐ฑ ๐๐ฎ๐ธ๐ฒ ๐ฎ ๐ณ๐น๐ฎ๐บ๐ฒ๐๐ต๐ฟ๐ผ๐๐ฒ๐ฟ ๐๐ผ ๐๐ต๐ถ๐ ๐ฝ๐น๐ฎ๐ฐ๐ฒ!
Hi @Alecmcq, @PaulL, @Anniegirl9, @OldDoug, @mtncntrykid, @MarkGossage, @Baytowvin et al who have given thoughtful responses to my somewhat reactionary post - thanks! Sorry to lob a bomb into the discussion and fail to participate in the aftermath! Life intervened.
My main takeaway is that I compared apples and oranges - Keto is a long-term adaptation, whereas, bodybuilding cutting is a short-term tactic that is not sustainable. Very fair point.
That said, I think we need to develop actionable tactics to try when we (1) are Keto-adapted, and (2) still wish to lose additional weight/body fat that has persisted for months. The obvious, blunt force approach mentioned by @Alecmcq is fasting, which Iโm using with some success. Alec mentioned sustainability as a concern โ Iโm thinking that just as it takes a shift in attitude to go from carb-burner to Keto, it may take a similar shift to adopt IF and EF long term, and if it improves longevity, quality of life, while saving time and money, why not?
The real discussion, the holy grail for me, is clearly understanding how to lower my weight set-point, such that I can choose and maintain my weight with less effort.
Dave, itโs a great discussion. I wouldnโt say totally apples and oranges - if one isnโt a bodybuilder, and really only wants to lose weight, then perhaps the objections to the short-term nature of bodybuilding cycling wonโt apply so much.
You mentioned fasting, and I think youโre spot on, there. A significant amount of people who eat ketogenically report that while there are various benefits to keto, what really makes for them losing weight is fasting. We can view this as a more-permanent โstallโ condition while keto, broken by fasts. Not a universal condition, by any means, but neither is stalling in the first place.
How to lower the weight set-point, absolutely - a more-than-worthy goal. 
I have a few uneloquent thoughts:
Ah, set point theoryโฆ I was/am going down that line, but not sure what actions to take to lower the set point. Lower the overall insulin load?
@richard it seems has moved on from this theory, but is rather coy in telling us what he now believes. I wonder if this is the subject of his proposed PhD, and he doesnโt want to let cats out of bags?? 
I would take it as a compliment. Their jealousy acted over their ethics.
True, the Bodybuilding community is full of nutritional nuttiness. Thereโs two major areas. The first is Supplements, including Protein Powder. The dogma is that you canโt gain muscle without them. The goal of bodybuilders is to go professional, which means a promotional contract with a supplement manufacturer, despite possibly never using their product. Therefore, the community heavily supports supplement use.
The second is the type of people who are attracted to the Lifestyle, in the genetic sense. Since low levels of body fat is required to show muscular definition, those without the trait of subcutaneous fat storage find things easier. However, often that trait is paired with a strong myostatin response that prevents the addition of significant muscle mass. Both are warm weather phenotypical expressions, as opposed to large mass, subcutaneous fat storage traits that would aid in Winter survival. Hence the steroid use in the lifestyle.
These things are why itโs difficult to apply the bodybuilding lifestyle to others, and everyone also should be skeptical about following recommendations from it.
All of society is that exact thing. Many of us have a toe in a different pool here and there. Wanna see each-ism? Check out Facebook. If you learn left, chances are a majority of your friends are like minded and much of what they post that has to do with left learning politics or anti conservatism stances all have the same relative flavor. Now substitute topic โXโ into that sentence for the political referenceโฆ say Keto. And here we are.
Dr. Lecter said it best when he spoke about coveting. And so did Duncan. We surround ourselves with like minded folk. For example. I used to surround myself with beer swilling, fried food fiend, donut comping carb addicts. Now I choose you fine people
@240lbfatloss - agreed โ I should emphasize I only mention the bodybuilding community as one example of people who can absolutely, positively lose weight and body fat on demand. They take specific action to lose as much weight and fat as they desire. They donโt โtrust the processโ. They donโt โkeep calmโ. They donโt stall for months at 20 to 30 pounds over their target weight while engaging in interminable circular debates why CICO is invalid โ they leverage CICO to get the goddam weight off, like right now, whether anyone else likes it or not. I appreciate the violent execution of a goal.
So, while their specific methods may not work for me, their attitude does, which I hope to emulate to (1) get to my target weight, and (2) troll vegans in the process.
I didnโt understand your comment till I sounded it out!
โฆout
โโ"""""""""" out
Hi. Good job. I have been dieting since 7. I discovered Keto and Iโve been through a long period of just soothing my body with food. I have lost maybe 13 pounds in 6 months. But I join the echo chamber : Keto feels great 
I love it
Iโm not an active poster here but I read a lot of dietary science and have a pretty good handle (in my mind) of what happens out there in terms of how people think.
Keto has obviously had a renaissance and with that comes a plethora of opinion and variance.
Some like it ultra low carb, some seem to get away with a lot more, some like to reform their whole diet away from processed foods, some supplement carb blockers and ketones.
Many are not the slightest bit scientific and consume data from blogs that has them doing all sorts of cleanses and believing acid/alkaline type hypothesis. Some live on pubmed.
Some see keto as a fad and generalise about fads.
At the extremes there is a war of ideals, keto is good/bad and x diet is better.
At some point n=1 does actually become relevant as we have individual DNA and microbiomes. Very few studies seem to consider this yet genes like apoe and ppar seem pretty important.
For me I have a rough time going in and out of ketosis, blood sugar control , refeeding edema and low heart rate variability I accept this as I understand and listen fairly intently to how my body reacts to things .
I think if I hadnโt been through other diets and health conditions previously I might drop it and run to the nearest blog site and criticise it.
In summary, this site should (in my own little opinion) focus on discussion and publication of the research. In addition collect data /experiences from individuals and if possible collect their perculiar differences be it a disease, gene or overgrowth of gut bacteria.
If it contradicts what we believe, so what? , if we find something bad or unsustainable then so be it. Minds should change with evidence. I try very hard not to own an opinion/position
Hi @decreebass.
I do believe we are in an echo chamber, albeit one that is better supported by the best available evidence ;-). We definitely need to keep challenging ourselves to understand the available evidence and accept that some of it might lead us to adjust our believes in the future. For CICO though, I do believe it is demonstrable a very unhelpful framework 
I usually end up answering one forum that, while CICO is always true, it is just a misleading and unproductive way to lose weight, like saying we lost the match because we scored less goals than the opposing team: technically true, but useless in doing a better job next time. Calorie deficit can be construed as a consequence of doing Keto for example, as is weight loss. I would point them to a video or book of one of the numerous low carb advocate with a focus on the evidence (Jason Fung, Nina Teicholz, Gary Taubes, etc.), hopefully it can lead at least some of them to take a look at the conflicting evidence and decide for themselves?
Keep Calm and Keto on
Regina says Iโm considered a bit of a heretic on this forum. I am proud to wear that badge if its because I donโt always agree. n=1 is my get out of jail card. 
Point is if this forum was an echo chamber Iโd have been kicked out by now.
From one heretic to another, thatโs a compliment. However, I seem to be getting worse, and if I donโt start putting a lid on it, might have to turn in my robe.
Be sure to have it cleaned first, or the mothership charges a fine. Candles donโt need to be returned, by the way. 
Youโll have a fight on your hands if you make me turn it in!!!