Are we just an echo chamber?

(the cheater) #1

Do you guys think we are an echo chamber, support group, rebel underground, or what? This has somewhat been on my mind for a couple months ever since I had posted on a Bodybuilding.com keto thread in an effort to clear up some misinformation that someone else had posted in the keto sub-forum. Essentially, they were arguing that all that mattered was CICO; which we who live the keto WOE understand is only a tiny portion of the picture. We also know that timing has a lot to do with what makes keto successful for hormone regulation as well as weight loss.

Long story short, I said to the person who was telling me I was wrong that we would have to agree to disagree, and that the OP should come to this forum, since theyā€™d definitely find way more keto-related information and support here. The argumentative guy said, ā€œOkay, just go on back to your echo chamber.ā€ So that got me thinkingā€¦

Iā€™m the last person to have faith. In fact, I think faith is one of the most dangerous ideas to ever plague humanity; but when thereā€™s so little hard science to support our way of eating, other than countless anecdotal evidence, n=1 studies (personal experience), is what weā€™re doing anything more than faith and bro-science?

I have lost over 42lbs since mid-February. I feel wonderful. Iā€™m spry, light on my feet, eneergetic, love the food we get to eat (never cooked more or more delicious things in my life!), and in general feel great, as well as have the blood labs and primary-care doctor support to back this all up. I KNOW this works. I experience that keto is a great way to live. However, for some reason, that comment just shot right through me; about this just being an echo chamber. Maybe I am a fluke, and maybe Iā€™ll have a stroke or heart attack in a few years and prove the skeptics right. Or maybe Iā€™ll live to 98 still driving myself around. Who knows?

Sorry. I guess I just needed to vent. I love keto, I love the keto community, and I love the results Iā€™ve gotten. It just feel so isolating sometimes; except for you guys and a couple close friends, I feel like weā€™re a mutant cult operating inside our echo chamber, giving each other the kool aid, convincing each other that weā€™re right, you know?

What do you guys think?

(Doug) #2

Well, DB, itā€™s still pretty early, I think. There is a degree of isolation, yes, but given that such a significant portion of the worldā€™s population can benefit from addressing the same hormonal issues, with the often-attendant problems of obesity, insulin/blood sugar levels, etc., I see our group getting larger and more mainstream in the coming years.

(John) #3

Looks like you have your own answer for that part. I believed in CICO too until it happened to me, insulin resistance changes the game and someone who has never experienced it just has to take other peoples word for it. The real damaging part of the CICO people is that anything to do with weight and related issues like T2D is fundamentally a weakness of the person. It is your fault you are fat, diabetic etc.
For CICO people there is no real debate, it is just macroā€™s and thermodynamics does its thing. We understand that the body is way more complex and since we canā€™t talk about our differences there, we had to create our own space. IMO this is the opposite of an echo chamber, they are the ones repeating that everything is simple CICO and refuse to accept anything else, we are experimenting on ourselves and sharing the result.

Studies come from money, there isnā€™t a lot there for keto because the money isnā€™t really there yet, but as more and more products come to market I think we will see more, but they will never outspend the sugar industry.
CICO is easily falsifiable but none of those people care. Can I eat all of my calories in protein? No, you will die, what about 100% carbs? Nope, still gonna die. So the amount you eat of each of the different types matter which means it isnā€™t JUST CICO, it is CICO plus a lot of other stuff that depends on the person.

(ANNE ) #4

IMHO this forum is a bit of an echo chamber. Just an evolving group of people who share a common understanding. And naturally when all share our own stories of N=1 common themes emerge, we do sound echolaic.
I tend to think CICO has an impact, but most SAD people donā€™t get that our energy source is primarily fat. I guess if I cared at all, I would add up all the calories in fat and protein that I put inside me every day, maybe it would add up to around 1500-2000.
But these days I simply donā€™t care anymore.
My husband is joining me in Keto eating, and slowly the kids are understanding that ā€œfat is your friendā€ and to lower the carbs where possible.
Not sure what I am trying to say here, other than, yup echo chamber it may be, but at least I not alone in my experience.

(the cheater) #5

What an excellent point!

(Chris) #6

lol found the problem

(KCKO, KCFO) #7

My first thought is bodybuilding.com is not exactly science based information. It is very full of broscience. I used to visit it but got feed up with their clickish way of thinking. If yoyo dieting is bad for us, as just about any medical person will tell you, how can the cut and bulk of body building be healthy and good for you? It is in my opinion totally vanity based behavior, my muscle is bigger than yours thinking. I have nothing against strength training, feel it is a very good thing, but the body building is just vanity.

My second thought is yeah, we are a support group and rebel underground.
We go out and dig up studies big pharma and ag businesses want buried. We do support each other in getting keto adapted and dealing with any issues that might arise from that. We do rebel against the Keyes based way of eating, which even he later admitted was WRONG.
So I am fine with being rebellious and supportive.

My third thought is good for you finding out what works for you. It also sounds like your dr. liked your results as well. And no you are not a fluke, read the progress threads here. Thousands of others are finding this WOE works for them and is sustainable.

(the cheater) #8

lol yup. That used to be my go-to forum. But they are a wasteland when it comes to keto, except for the few signs that direct people here :slight_smile:

Anyway, I rarely visit there anymore. Obviously, in the information age, when it comes to nutrition, any rational and critically thinking person will have to rely a little on bro-science, but that place is especially loaded with conflicting info.

(icky) #9

My take is: yes and no.

I love the bits of the forum that are true open debate and sharing of scientific background as well as n=1 anecdotal evidence. My impression is, thatā€™s the spirit it was originally founded in.

The bit of the forum I suuuuuper dislike is when it turns into a closed-minded propaganda machine that vilifies others, like vegetarians and vegans. I donā€™t think keto is in some war of diets and I refuse to view others as ā€œthe diet enemyā€. Also, Iā€™m not a fan of some of the paranoia.

Like most things in life, itā€™s a bit of both. I guess itā€™s about trying to pick the good stuff and dealing with the rest.

Any echo-chambery stuff ist best met with debate and open-minded thinking.

(Doug) #10

Thereā€™s certainly an element of ā€˜echo chamberā€™ there too. Iā€™ve never lifted weights regularly, but got to know quite a few bodybuilders by playing the same online games - was even on one team almost entirely composed of MISCers - referring to ā€œThe MISC,ā€ people who frequented the Miscellaneous folder of the forum.

I do agree that thereā€™s some pathology there.

(@Insulin_Resistant) #11

how can this be an echo chamber when the official motto is ā€œshow me the science?ā€

this forum encourages civil discussion of perspectives that disagree, provided that it has some legitimate support based on legitimate science.

(less is more, more or less) #12

What Iā€™ve found is a lively and inquisitive group dedicated to forming a healthy lifestyle and much clamoring for more science, and more clinical trials, so we can better understand what it means for us as individuals and for our larger communities. I get plenty of push back when I err, and I like that. I donā€™t waste my time with groups that just glad-hand each other.

Iā€™ll go out on a limb and suspect this isnā€™t the case with bodybuilding.com, so Iā€™m guessing your friend is experiencing projection and not much else. That said, he or she is welcome to join and offer counter-evidence, just as the 2KDā€™s always invite in their podcasts.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

I too appreciate the science-based nature of the discussions. Yes, we do get a bit you-must-do-this-y and thatā€™s-not-keto-ish from time to time, especially when newcomers post the same questions people have already answered a gazillion times, but practically everyone can point either to a study or else to a video or an article that points to a study. And the studies people point to make sense and donā€™t have any obvious holes in them, as far as I can tell (although my bias may be at work here).

I was alerted to metabolic disease by Drs. Lustig and Attia, and I owe them a great debt for opening my eyes. They did it, however, by making arguments that make scientific sense, not by hand-waving. They and the other researchers I value never belittle people who donā€™t believe as they do (well, maybe Ancel Keys, a bit), they just point to the randomized controlled studies that support their views. And they seem to be willing to change their minds if a better study comes along. (Though I donā€™t see that happening, given how much sense their views make, in view of the biological mechanisms involved.)

I guess that last point is the key. If we are willing to change our minds when presented with better evidence, then we are not an echo chamber.

#14

This IS an echo chamber and thatā€™s exactly why Iā€™m here. Weā€™re all on some sort of health journey and Iā€™d rather surround myself with like-minded travelers than doubters. I like the encouragement, I like the success stories, I LOVE the science - which by the way is NEW science - that supports this way of eating that works for many of us.

In the end I donā€™t care what others eat and I donā€™t care what others think of what I eat. The health consequences for my choices reside with me1

Donā€™t feel left out, donā€™t feel attacked about what you eat, donā€™t feel ostracized but DO feel better each and every day! That right there is success.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #15

Yes. Echo chamber as any keto hostile study is dismissed rapidly, on grounds that are not applied equally to keto friendly studies.

Support group, because we do support each other.

Rebel Underground, because we do have essential truths, that, for whatever reason, have been relegated to the sidelines of the mainstream discussion about health.

Or whatā€¦ yes, more than all that.

The fact is, no forum has the complete truth, and nutrition is full of dogma that borders on religion. Context matters. Things on Bodybuilding.com may work for users there, as they are in one context. Keto may work for users here, because we have a context that is different.

(Ron) #16

Can it not be said that ā€œanyā€ support group of any forum for any cause could be some form of "echo chamber in some way or another? Isnā€™t that the point, to ā€œechoā€ the benefits as a means to spread the word? I would cherish the comment as a compliment of recognition of being united in our quest to help others. :wink:

#17

Echo chamber? Mostly yes. But just because the approved message is passed around and echoed back and forth does not mean the message itself is wrong.

(Diane) #18

Well said!

(Diane) #19

A valid point!

#20

Iā€™d say more of a Resistance (if you will pardon the pun). Iā€™m here to clear the dis/misinformation from my mind. No better way to do this than to surround yourself with likeminded peopleā€“smarter people than meā€“who are seeking out the truth through science.

Although, I can see why it may seem like an egregore to those stuck in the CICO mindset, it will take a lot to reverse this indoctrination, understandably so. Most will find it difficult to believe they have been lied to by their own government appointed bodies. When I first started telling my parents about how much is wrong in the conventional wisdom, my father was shocked by the studies being funded by the very companies who create the medications and their lack of transparency. For example, the Statin clinical trials. Most egregiously the fact that they do a 6 week run-in to the trial to get rid of anyone who has a negative reaction to the Statin, a staggering 36 percent of the control group.