APRIL 2019 IF/EF Chat ALL WELCOME

(Herb Martin) #322

Jennifer,

There are actually a lot of IFs here. It’s another tool.

Most of us doing extended fasting are either working on specific issues (large weight loss, cleaning up disease, even cancer though I haven’t heard anyone MENTION that here lately as personal issue.)

I skipped over IF because my diet was 100% carnivore and 0-carb for 7 months when I first came to understand fasting.

Dr. Fung was probably my main (online) mentor and his recommendation (at least at one time was something like this):

'We take new T2D/metabolic syndrome/obesity patients through a 7-day water fast then bring them back, test and discuss it with them. If they are good to go we continue the fast to 14 days.

'However, not everyone can do that so we move them to a low-carb, ketogenic, or 0-carb diet and get them to do 3-day fasts or more 7 days fasts.

‘If that is too much we use 1-day, OMAD, restricted time feeding.’

'14 (or 7) is just quicker to get a metabolic reset and perhaps get them off some of the meds that are also not really helping their true health but only dealing with symptoms.

'One big fast or a lot of little fasts. All of this is good and we don’t know which is BEST.

‘We use the long fast because it is FASTER :wink: to start but we don’t know if it is the BEST way’.

Words to that effect spread over a number of videos.

Do what works for YOU.

And always, you’ll have IF in your tool box either as a long term life-style or as just another way to keep your body healthy from time to time.

(Herb Martin) #323

Are you drinking alcohol while fasting or was the prior to starting? Immediately prior to starting?

Alcohol is usually dehydrating, so using the fasting electrolytes is one of the best ways to AVOID an hang-over if you drink excessively.

No judgment – just questions.

(I have been know to drink :wink: but I don’t drink often these days.)

From what I can tell a DRY RED WINE is likely your best bet to stay reasonably close to keto.

Pinot Noir stands out in my mind as a specific recommendation that I personally like and buy. That means the more expensive Chateau Neuf de Pape would also be quite good if you can afford it or only drink a little each day.

I think the Malbec’s might be in this category but don’t quote me on that (check first.) If so they are quite inexpensive compared to many wines of the same quality.

We have a bunch of Malbec in the pantry which is currently of little use :slight_smile:

(Alec) #324

Nick
I am thinking about this again given the CICO discussion on the other thread. My basic point on CICO is that we can’t control or know calories out, but your RMR measurement goes some way (maybe all the way?) to fixing that…

So here’s my question: do you know whether the RMR measuring equipment measures all calories out? If it does claim to do that, do you know how it does it? I am really intrigued in this question, as it starts addressing my problem with the CICO model.

It would be utterly fantastic if you could simply measure your total calories out for a day, and then eat the following day just under that amount and hence gradually drop weight. I could go for a long run one day, and then know this will add to the calories I can take in the next day.

The hormonal theory means that if I have high insulin, but do not take in many calories, my actual calorie expenditure will go down, as I will have very limited access to calories. I would love to know whether this is actually measured using the kit you have.

By the way, do you mind me asking how much you paid for yours?
Cheers
Alec

(Doug) #325

We don’t deem it not to be resting when we have food in our stomach or small intestine, however, and thus the RMR should increase when digestion is taking place and decline once one is far enough into a fast. If there are offsetting factors that would explain a steady RMR between eating and fasting, so be it, but all other things being equal, for TDEE to go down without RMR doing the same doesn’t seem right.

One example would be that very being-strapped-to-a-bed you mention. Fasting should bring a lower TDEE as well as a lower RMR, versus eating.

(Alec) #326

Supposed to be a fasting day today, but we have a special family lunch planned.

OMAD instead. RTE replacing IF. Hmmm…

(Doug) #327

I don’t know either, but that makes sense. Certainly, the increased hormone secretion is known and will have effects. I still have to think that an increased RMR due to them would be accompanied by an increased TDEE, all other things being equal. And then likewise - if we have an RMR that falls, would not the TDEE have to decline as well, unless things were not equal, i.e. like exercising more when not fasting?

(Alec) #328

Herb
I do occasionally measure BP. My BP is generally quite low eg 105/60, although recently it has drifted a little higher to something like 115/70.

Not quite sure of the links between HR and BP

(Neil) #329

The way the machine that Nick and I have works is that you breathe into a tube connected to the machine for 10-20 minutes, and it measures how many calories you burn during that time, and then it uses that to estimate how many calories you will burn for the entire day.

It can’t measure how many calories you actually burned for the entire day unless you spend the entire day breathing into that tube, which wouldn’t be reasonable.

So to answer your question: you could get an estimate of your RMR for day 1 and use that to set your calorie target for day 2. But you couldn’t go for a run in the middle of day 1 and see the impact of that on how many calories you burned that day, since your metabolic rate would go up during the activity but then come back down again a few hours later.

The other problem with the idea of using your RMR on day 1 to change what you eat on day 2 is that what you eat will change your RMR! My own n=1 data shows, for example, that my RMR increases on days when I’m feasting versus when I’m fasting. My body reacts to the extra energy intake by using more energy. So “if I eat as much energy as I burned yesterday, my weight will stay constant over time” doesn’t actually work.

(Alec) #330

Neil
Thanks, that makes sense to me… so I think I remember it measures your breath gas composition, and from that it can tell how many calories you are burning while you are attached to the machine. How variable is this across a day? I am assuming this reading goes up and down significantly during the day, or is it fairly stable?

My theory though is that any change on day 1 driven by eating on day 1 is then adjusted for on day 2. Long term, if you follow a regime of eating slightly less than you really burned yesterday (and you know because you measured it accurately: important key point!), then I think that should lead to long term gradual weight loss.

WW/CICO theory follows this theory with one really important difference: the real measurement of actual calorie usage. My theory would need some experimentation, and of course the key problem is accurate calories out measurement which still looks really hard.

(Neil) #331

I actually can’t answer this question because I’ve only been measuring my RMR once per day, right after I wake up. It would be an interesting experiment to try measuring it several times throughout the day to see how much it changes!

A different theory says that calorie restriction would result in decreasing your RMR over time, which creates a vicious cycle: you eat less, so your RMR drops, so you have to eat less, so your RMR drops more, and so on.

(Windmill Tilter) #332

Mine goes for about $12,000, but it has a lot of bells and whistles that aren’t necessary for just tracking RMR. I got a really good deal on a used one, and got it re-calibrated and re-certified by Korr.

The Korr base model, the Korr Metacheck, is an absolutely fantastic rig that measures RMR +/- 2.2% and goes for about $3,500. That’s what most weight loss clinics use.

(Windmill Tilter) #333

I think that this is true now that I think about it. In fact, the testing protocol for RMR calls for a 4hr fast prior to the exam, so it definitely has a modest influence. Basal Metabolic Rate BMR is pretty much the same as RMR, but it’s a much stricter testin protocol; among other things, it requires a 12hr fast. So you definitely have a point here. The thermic effect of food is usually calculated in addition to RMR, but I agree that it affects RMR as well.

My understanding is that Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE) has the following components:

  • RMR
  • Thermic Effect of Food
  • Non Exercise Energy Expenditure
  • Exercise

One example of where TDEE increases while RMR decreases is under large loads of exercise. Here is an interesting study of the Australian National Rowing team during training season. They were doing massive amounts of exercise and expending thousands of additional calories a day. The study examines how this lowers their RMR’s.

(Windmill Tilter) #334

Not necessarily. If you ran a marathon, your TDEE might be 6,000kcals, your whole central nervous system is fried, and your RMR that evening might be 1900. The next day when spent the day recovering on a hammock, your RMR might be 2000, but your TDEE might be 2500.

My understanding is that RMR is influenced by all of the components of TDEE, but not always the way that you’d expect, and it normally the magnitude of the variability is much smaller. RMR should normally be very stable. @primal.peanut’s and my RMR vary more than anything I’ve ever seen published when we’re doing feast/fast cycles.

(Doug) #335

Wow, Nick: “Four weeks of heavy training decreased RMR and body composition variables in elite rowers and induced substantial fatigue, likely related to an imbalance between energy intake and output. This study demonstrates that highly experienced athletes do not necessarily select the correct energy intake during periods of intensified training, and this can be assessed by reductions in RMR and body composition. The shortfall in energy availability likely affected recovery from training and altered 5 km time trial pacing strategy, resulting in reduced performance.”

So, they REALLY need to eat, eh? :smile: Granted that these are elite athletes, but it flies in the face of the old “exercise increases metabolism even well after the exercise stops” maxim.

Well yeah, but running a marathon versus not running a marathon is having things be decidedly ‘not equal.’

I’m not sure here - TDEE would include things not “seen” during an RMR test, especially with some hours of rest/fasting beforehand, so would they really be influencing RMR?

Totally agreed it should be vastly more stable than TDEE, for obvious reasons. I do wonder about the overall stability of RMR when fasting - my gut feeling is that it’s less stable than as in those studies you mention. Don’t know of any reasons the studies would be necessarily flawed, but yes - you and Primal Peanut more mirror what I’d expect (not that that’s any meaningful deal :stuck_out_tongue:).

In all of this, when TDEE rises, even dramatically, and RMR stays the same or close (or even declines), I have no problem with that - it’s easy to see how it happens.

But when TDEE falls, as during a fast, with RMR holding steady, this is what doesn’t make sense to me. The two can be effectively the same thing.

(Tamela Robinette) #336

No I don’t consume alcohol while fasting. I attempted a fast on Monday but wasn’t feeling it and since I have a big 13 mile race coming up on Saturday I decided to forgo fasting and just eat and enjoy myself this week. Then today happened where I totally wasn’t hungry I just ate at the 24 hour mark (like 5 minutes ago.) I have learned beer, my favorite is a no go for me on keto. I get so bloated and it takes me 4 to 5 days to get back into ketosis so I rarely drink beer anymore. Pinot Noir has become my absolute favorite lately. I was a big merlot drinker but my tastes have changed. I also enjoy vodka here and there with some Sprite Zero (I know it’s not optimal.) Anyway, I drank a whole bottle of Robert Mondavi, pinot noir Monday night and yesterday I had a few vodka drinks and a glass of wine. I decided not to drink today since the scale creeped up 3 pounds so far this week, but I have been enjoying 2 meals a day and did a little more cardio than last week. I’ve read cardio can cause a little weight gain, idk. I will probably attempt three 42 hour fast next week, a little ADF. Great job on getting back in the ring and doing what you love! Keep it up!

(Herb Martin) #337

When your pressure is low due to low volume then the heart must pump faster to pump the same volume of blood. That is the same quantities of oxygen and nutrients.

When you fast or sweat heavily and lose volume this tends to run up the pulse rate.

(I came for the weight loss and stayed for my sanity... ) #338

Hit my 24h goal just now. Feeling very good. not even needing coffee (had one ritual cup, not really for the caffein)
I will deffinetly go to 36h maybe 44/46.

(Herb Martin) #339

Fast Day #11 (half way through)

First time I’ve felt noticeable hungry in more than a week and for more than a couple of minutes.

Not serious, not bad, but not nothing either.

So I can turn it off with self-hypnosis (probably haven’t mentioned this is another way I cheat :slight_smile: ) or I can have some bone broth, or I can tough it out a few hours and see how it resolves…

GKI was pretty good, but up to 0.91 – because my glucose went up to 103 (??? What’s up with that?) Ketones at 6.3 so that’s still climbing even if slowly.

205.5 – MIGHT make 200- by Sunday night but I’ll get close almost certainly.

Boxing again tonight probably.

Didn’t sleep much, work up at 4:15 am ready to do. Energy rush is a double edge sword. I didn’t really want to be awake, but no more sleep was necessary or likely.

Happy Fasting Day to All you Good People.

(Jennifer) #340

Thanks for the responses, guys. Y’all are super helpful.

Going OMAD cured my night eating, so I thought. The last two nights, I’ve gotten up to eat something. Brie and a little leftover meat sauce, so nothing horrible, but it does make my fasting wonky, when I eat at 2am. I’m fasting until tomorrow until 3pm or so (we’ll see what happens through the day). I was having stomach issues, so I slept on the couch, so I wouldn’t bother hubby with my up and down, but I’m definitely sleeping with him. I don’t get up as often, then. I have a nagging, small fear (yes, even in my sleepy stupor) that I will be “caught”. Sleep issues suck, but they are still better than they were years ago… Even months ago. :slight_smile:

#341

Nice work, im at the 36 hr mark. Im going to keep trucking on. We’re just about at the same time, lets see if we can push through😀.