APRIL 2019 IF/EF Chat ALL WELCOME

[LizinLowell]

Thanks for laying out this info! I have been feasting 2MAD on eating days but my weight shoots up & freaks me out (though I know it’s water & food in my gut) before I fast again where it goes back to baseline, but I never seem to actually lose weight. I am not testing my RMR so I’m sorely lacking data and just hoping the science works for me eventually. I have about 20 pounds to go (maybe more?) and am basically still where I was a year ago.

[primal.peanut]

If you’re going to fast on a cyclical basis, it’s critical that you feast at least two days between fasts with a least 2 meals each day, and that the fasting days be well over TDEE (total daily energy expenditure).

I’m curious, can you elaborate on why you think 2 days with 2 meals a day is critical? I know we’ve both been doing 2+ days of refeeding but have you tested 1 day? I haven’t, but I don’t know if you have.

I don’t think the 2 meals a day part is necessarily right, though – I’m personally doing OMAD on my refeeding days and it doesn’t seem to be causing any issues. I’m almost positive not in a caloric deficit on my feasting days though.

[Don_Q]

Hey @Don_Q this is only necessary for full day fasting, right? Just making sure. So if I only Do 20 hr fasting and Im eating a couple times within a 4 hour window, there’s no need for me to feast exceeding TDEE on any given day, correct? As long as I’m eating enough in those 4 hour windows? Just making sure i have that right.

What I’m talking about really only applies to doing extended fasting (>36hrs) on a serial basis. I’m talking about doing feast/fast continuously for weeks or months.

If you’re doing time restricted eating (8:16, 4:20, OMAD) what I’m talking about doesn’t come into play at all. If you do one 72 fast or 120hr fast every every other week, what I’m talking about doesn’t really apply either.

That said, I’m not sure I’ve seen compelling evidence that continuous calorie restriction doesn’t impact resting metabolic rate even on keto. From what I’ve seen, there is some evidence that a ketogenic diet helps to mitigate that impact of continuous calorie restriction, but it doesn’t eliminate it. Megan Ramos has said explicitly that she thinks OMAD on a continuous, long term basis risks slowing down metabolic rate, but I haven’t seen any data on that. That said, when it comes to fasting, we’re all just amateurs; Megan is the real deal, and when she speaks, I listen!

I think that if you are going to do time restricted eating 4:20, I think the standard keto advice of “eat to satiety” is really smart. Some days calories might be higher, and some days lower, and that’s really the best way to keep your metabolism happy over the long term.

I’m working on a project right now over on my accountability thread to track metabolic response in real time. Basically, it tracks how your metabolism responds to a given caloric load with respect to theoretically perfect metabolism. The closer the slope of your own weight loss curve matches that of a “perfect” metabolism, the closer you are to optimal metabolic health. What matters is not that the slope of your line matches “perfect”, it’s the change in the slope of that line that matters. If it’s moving farther away from perfect, well that’s a red flag. If the slope is moving closer to “perfect”, then that’s good. It sounds complicated, but it’s really pretty simple.

It’s kind of an early warning system. It seems to work. I went off plan a bit for a couple weeks during the last few months. The yellow line shows a perfect metabolic response to a given caloric load. The blue line is my actual progress during feast/fast cycles. The blue line goes up and down cyclically primarily due to water gain/loss. See if you can spot where I went off-plan for two weeks during my birthday. Look how sensitive that yellow line is, and how quickly my metabolism went haywire! Click on the picture and it will double in size for legibility. The link to the discussion of how it works is here:

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/don-quixote-tilts-at-metabolic-windmills/79146/152?u=don_q

I’m not an expert by any stretch though. I’m just a guy who’s tired of not being able to see his feet, and a weird fasting hobby.

[KetoMomof2teens]

@Don_Q thank you so much for that insightful response!

[Herb_Martin]

Sharon_E Ok, I’ll slap you with a large virtual salmon upside the head if you whine too much.

[BTW: That was a standard “message” in the old IRC program “X slaps Y with a FISH” – you just pressed a button to send that. IRC == Internet Relay Chat, the grand-parent of many Internet “forums”.]

My previous 2 fasts were #1 12-days, #2 14-days.

Everyone:

I am going to strongly disagree with the idea that that is some “minimum” amount of feasting or time or food required between fasts.

Of course, I might be wrong and am willing to be convinced but my reasoning is simple (and I believe everyone will find it compelling even if not completely convincing):

We could just have STAYED ON THE FAST, so eating a bit is not going to make things worse as long as we eat judiciously, and that probably means the smaller the better for short breaks (first few days refeeding.)

Since the world record is 382 days, it’s difficult to successfully argue a “required break” unless there is either a health problem created by the fast already or a health problem created by a poor refeeding.

[OldDoug]

We could just have STAYED ON THE FAST, so eating a bit is not going to make things worse as long as we eat judiciously, and that probably means the smaller the better for short breaks (first few days refeeding.)

Herb, if there is a difference, I’d think it would come from differing hormonal response to eating, versus fasting. Indeed - the fast could continue, and things are very much steady-state there (compared to eating).

We know that at some point, caloric restriction leads to a declining metabolism. When eating, I think this is somewhere between one week and a few months. When interrupting a fast - who knows? It’s a question.

[Don_Q]

I’m curious, can you elaborate on why you think 2 days with 2 meals a day is critical? I know we’ve both been doing 2+ days of refeeding but have you tested 1 day? I haven’t, but I don’t know if you have.

I don’t think the 2 meals a day part is necessarily right, though – I’m personally doing OMAD on my refeeding days and it doesn’t seem to be causing any issues. I’m almost positive not in a caloric deficit on my feasting days though.

I don’t have any hard data to support it. There aren’t any studies of people who have fasted more than once as far as I know. This is just what Dr. Fung and Megan Ramos say in the IDM course. They’ve got the most data out of anybody, so I just have to go on trust when they say to do something fasting related.

It makes intuitive sense to me, because I find that when I eat OMAD, I get satiated very quickly, and it’d be really easy to not eat quite enough. I’m not saying it can’t be done, just that it’s less risky to eat 2 meals to a little past satiety. It’s a lot easier to go into a calorie surplus this way. If you’re not measuring, it’s the safer route. Obviously your OMAD has worked incredibly well for you over the last 6 months, so it definitely can be done, no question!

As for why 2 refeeding days, again, that’s the advice given at IDM. They don’t give data to support the recommendation, but nobody else even offers a guideline, so I follow it. One thing that I did see from @Karim_Wassef was an interesting phenomenon that we called the “GKI Afterglow”. After he finished his 19 day fast, his GKI remained under one for days after he started eating. Even though he was eating heaps of high carb food to bring it back up, his GKI was indicating he was still at a deep level of autophagy. It’s possible that if you did 5 day fasts, with only 1 day refeeds in between, you might wind up never actually fully leaving the deep autophagy state, which could lead to some pretty undesirable lean mass losses among other things.

Like I said, I’m definitely not an expert on any of this stuff! This is just what I’ve been able to piece together from reading studies, listening to Fung/Ramos, and talking with other folks who are tracking they’re own data.

[Digital_Dave]

This is what I do as well. At least two days between Fast, with two meals both days. (no matter how long I fasted) Works fine for me, and yes, believe Brenda also mentioned this is what they go by and suggest as well. And I believe she works with Dr. Fung? At least I think I recall her mentioning this?

[Don_Q]

I’m curious, can you elaborate on why you think 2 days with 2 meals a day is critical? I know we’ve both been doing 2+ days of refeeding but have you tested 1 day? I haven’t, but I don’t know if you have.

Nope. I’m very curious to try it though. One of these days, I’d like to buy a keto mojo so that I can track the glucose ketone index (GKI). I’d like to see how high GKI climbs after only one day of refeeding. I suspect it would remain very low, especially if following a 1FE:5FA pattern. The effects on RMR would also be really interesting to see.

[Herb_Martin]

Actually the Precision Xtra is just as good as the keto-mojo and it’s available cheaper (if you buy it right) and I think the strips might be less expensive (more competition) which is the real expense.

Buy the Precision Xtra SEPARATELY with no strips for $25. Then buy combination of 30 ketone and 30 glucose strips for $50 (together).

Less than cost of either “intro kit” and you get something like 3 times the strips.

[EDIT FOLLOWS]

The $25 Precision Xtra “meter only” arrived today (it’s a 2nd one for my wife to take when she travels).

It came with a lancet device and a little carrying bag so it only needs strips. (It had a few lances, but I didn’t count as we have about 200 of them due to all the meters we’ve purchased over the years.)

A single lance needle is good for 1-20 days for a single person (you only change it if it gets dull enough to hurt more – for 2 people you need to change it every day or better just buy another lancette device - or stick yourself with the needle WITHOUT putting it in the device.)
[End EDIT]

Cheap enough “meter” that you can even buy 2 of them for much better convenience and still come out cheaper (counting extra strips) than either “Kit”.

Why 2 meters? You can put strips in both, prick your finger, and not have to deal with reloading a single meter while your finger is either bleeding or trying to clot while the first reading it cooking.

[Don_Q]

I am going to strongly disagree with the idea that that is some “minimum” amount of feasting or time or food required between fasts.

Fair enough! Just to clarify, I’m definitely not claiming that any of the above are rules, even that there is consensus on any of them. It’s 100% just one guy’s opinion among many valid opinions. All I was saying was the if I had to distill the discussion on my accountability thread down to 1 sentence regarding continuous feast/fast cycles for months at a time it would be:

If you’re going to do extended fasting on a cyclical basis continuously, it’s critical that you feast at least two days between fasts with a least 2 meals each day, and that the fasting days be well over TDEE (total daily energy expenditure).

Also, the statement above is only about continuous feast/fast cycles done for months. Just my opinion that I’ve gleaned trolling around looking for info on fasting. Also, none of that is set in stone either. I’d happily change my mind if I saw data to support something else.

Everybody has a different perspective on how to fast safely and enjoyably. It might even be true that it really is different based on your body. At the end of the day, there is so little hard data on cycling fasts on a continuous basis, it’s anybody’s guess!

[Don_Q]

Buy the Precision Xtra SEPARATELY with no strips for $25. Then buy combination of 30 ketone and 30 glucose strips for $50 (together).

Why 2 meters? You can put strips in both, prick your finger, and not have to deal with reloading a single meter while your finger is either bleeding or trying to clot while the first reading it cooking.

This is a great idea! Particularly the part about picking up the two meters for $25. They keep that price low as a loss leader to sell strips, so we might as well take advantage of it! If I’m testing GKI daily, they’re still going to make out pretty well in the whole deal, so everybody wins. Thanks!

[Herb_Martin]

Update: (And I am going to edit the original).

The $25 Precision Xtra “meter only” arrived today (it’s a 2nd one for my wife to take when she travels).

It came with a lancet device and a little carrying bag so it only needs strips. (It had a few lances, but I didn’t count as we have about 200 of them due to all the meters we’ve purchased over the years.)

A single lance needle is good for 1-20 days for a single person (you only change it if it gets dull enough to hurt more – for 2 people you need to change it every day or better just buy another lancette device - or stick yourself with the needle WITHOUT putting it in the device.)

Day #5 of Fast: Easiest day fasting, perhaps ever.

Up early Sat morning 3 am, start of 6th day on fast. If I didn’t work (from home), I’d just sleep about 3-6 hours maximum at a time then sleep again whenever tired.

Reading “4-Hour Body” by Tim Ferriss. Amazing guy with a great pod cast too. He’s like a MUCH, MUCH better version of me :).

Also, finding articles by Dr. Wright on Berberine as an amazing resource for T2D, metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, and glucose lowering (as well as cholesterol improvement, memory improvement, and anti-infection.)

My Twitter has links to a tweet by Dr. Jay Wrigley and follow-up by me on Dr. Wright and Berberine (plus his other posts):

Herb Martin (HerbMartin)

Seriously, worth reading…

[Herb_Martin]

6th Day – 11 lbs down in 5 1/2 days.

GKI 1.24 (Glucose 85, Ketones 3.8) – waiting on ketones to jump up but this is very good.

We took pictures the last 2 days – I’m still technically obese (by BMI measures which are borked but no excuses), but my muscles look pretty good, maybe excellent for a 66 year old man.

(I was seriously surprised how good my back, lats, traps, arms looked and with shameful lack of exercise, though I won’t be entering any body building contests THIS year. )

The Berberine may be having a useful effect on blood glucose – we’ll monitor and report as it is too early to draw any conclusions. (See links in previous message.)
Lots of benefits to Berberine, likely as good a Metformin for diabetes and better at many other things with fewer side-effects.

Berberine-induced autophagic cell death by elevating GRP78 levels in cancer...

Blood pressure was marginal, but with no night time meds last night and reduced yesterday morning so not terrible.

Enjoying TIm Ferriss’ book “4-Hour Body” still, and ordered a bunch of supplements based on the recommendations.
(If I were still eating ribeyes this might be getting expensive. )

How you folks doing on the Fine Fasting Day?

Who’s in? Who’s getting in? Who wants to get in later this month?

Happy Fasting Day!!!

[LizinLowell]

64 1/2 hours fasted and really not enjoying this round. Just goes to show every fast is different! Breaking tonight at dinner and probably taking a break from fasting for a week or two, keep my body guessing. But lol I’ve said that before hashtag fastingaddict

[collaroygal]

Liz, I start a lot of extended fasts that turn out to just be ±40 hrs. Just do what feels right. You have enough stress going on in your life. So don’t let stressing out about fasting hrs. add to that.
#fastingaddict over here too. In fact my husband asked me recently if I plan to stop doing fasts at some point and I just replied “what is the point of that?”

I get so much more out of fasting now than just weight control.

[Herb_Martin]

If you aren’t loving it do what’s necessary to take care of yourself.

Electrolytes of course are the most likely issue. Fluid levels and blood pressure need to be maintained as well. (Related but separate issues.)

One advantage I’m coming to believe is very effective is to “boost” with bone broth, fat (MCT, heavy cream, etc.).

Boosting isn’t cheating if you are getting the fasting results you want or able to get back to them expeditiously, and it’s frequently going to be far better than being forced off a fast you might otherwise enjoy and be able to use to your benefit.

Find the way that works for you, including take a break when it’s time with no regrets.

[LizinLowell]

Just do what feels right. You have enough stress going on in your life. So don’t let stressing out about fasting hrs. add to that.

Yes, my feelings exactly! I would have broken earlier but I’m at Open Studios today and I consistently struggle with disaster pants ( Richard) on fast breaking and I need to be home for that hence breaking at dinner instead

If you aren’t loving it do what’s necessary to take care of yourself.

Electrolytes of course are the most likely issue. Fluid levels and blood pressure need to be maintained as well. (Related but separate issues.)

One advantage I’m coming to believe is very effective is to “boost” with bone broth, fat (MCT, heavy cream, etc.).

Yes to this all as well! I am a seasoned faster, coming up on two years of EF, and I agree with what you said. I take fat as needed for sure and I am not dogmatic about fasting at all. The only reason I kept going with this one is often day two is a bit of a bummer but day 3 is a joy so I hoped it would be the case this time, but not so much. I can’t break earlier, reasons stated above, so dinner it is. But I’m usually happy to quit when it’s not going well as listening to and trusting my body signals are one of my favorite benefits of going Keto.

[cervyn]

It is still mysterious to me after 2 or so years of fasting how different one fast can feel from another!

I was relieved when I listened to the most recent Eve chat with Megan (Ramos) yesterday to hear that many people experience a fasting slump in March.

Sometimes it’s just a relief to know you are not the only one!

Ended my 3 day last night and feeling great. GKI =1.2 this morning. Will probably eat meals this weekend and start next fast Sunday evening.

[Herb_Martin]

You folks are actually (far?) more experienced than I am at extended fasting.

Though I am finding that every fast is getting easier and more comfortable so far – in my limited experience.

12-day, 14-day, now finishing 6th day which 2 or more weeks in sight (maybe)…

The first (12-day) got rough at day #10 which I believe was electrolytes.

I got bored, annoyed at 14-days and decided to stop.

Now with a small bit of fat boosting, I’m having the easiest days yet. Didn’t NEED the boosting but used it for my wife and was suggesting it to others so decided to just take my own advice.

If numbers stop improving I’ll stop or cut it down. (GKI is 1.24 today so based on last fast they are on track and still climbing – I don’t jump way up quickly but I did get to 6-7+ Ketones last time.

33 of the last 49 days fasting I believe. (Snuck a 1.5 in there but decided to wait for my wife since she was doing her first fast.)

My Carol is loosely planning to start a new (2nd) fast on Sunday night Apr 15th, a week out, so if I stay on for the 2 weeks I’ll try to hang with her, or I’ll perhaps get off after 7-10 days and just go back to fasting with her (if it’s right.)

She’s also considering earlier than the 15th. Something about planning to eat all the good, spoilable food first

She cooked herself scallops in bacon grease covered in butter last night and said it was delicious, though she could ONLY EAT THREE before getting full.

This morning I submitted a request to my cardiologist for the ExaTest (magnesium and other minerals) on the patient portal. Gosh what’s hard to convince myself to do – but all she can say is ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.

The cardiologist probably saved my life in 2012, but she hasn’t been explaining things very well the last couple of years so while I’d prefer to stick with her, we don’t have a contract.

She really gave me no info on seeing the “Left Bundle Branch Block” on the EKG and didn’t answer my first portal follow-up questions after I’d done some research following that visit.

I am now shooting for ideal weight, with muscle building, by my birthday July 15th. 3+ months is easily doable (35-ish lbs of fat to go from here.) Or by cardiology follow-up in August as a fall back goal.

But it’ll be what it’ll be. Just thinking and working towards it…

Fat Fasting (far, far more than what I mean by “boosting”), also fasting porn included to use good judgement before linking if you are sensitive…

https://idmprogram.com/what-is-fat-fasting-and-when-should-you-do-it/?fbclid=IwAR0VansIXZKAIiCFU9-pIuPvg-sgJIK3kmonyfmjW--2erGNvRB7XEMeC4w

GKI: 0.96 Deep Autophagy about 5 3/4 days into the fast.
(Glucose 90, Ketones 5.6)