Another Carnivore Thread

(Full Metal KETO AF) #1786

My feces pretty much went liquid on Carnivore as well. It was most of the time I did Carnivore but I was never sure if coffee was the real culprit in the absence of fibrous vegetables slowing down motility. But eating a pure meat diet definitely doesn’t leave much solids at the end of digestion for me. I think it’s a common thing. As far as the allergies yeah, I have a problem every spring and I’m in the middle of it now. I hope you start feeling better soon Kristen. :cowboy_hat_face::heart:

(Not a cow) #1787

I used to think that a sled ride was something romantic, but since I would never have gotten around to that, I could have done without that story ;(:shushing_face: haha.

Bathroom issues have always been a problem for me when transitioning to carnivore. It was also a problem for me on keto after a fast of anything longer than 48 hours. I stopped fasting because of it, but I wanted to give that carnivore healing that I have heard about a good chance. Cheating with carbs does help with the shit issues, but that incorporates more of a keto/carnivore woe, "carnovore-ish as Paul Saladino refers to it as in his Carnivore Code book. He discusses Tier 1 to Tier 5 carnivore woe’s which this is one. Take a slower transition to carnivore and help your gut issues adapt, but if you are in a hurry, I like to use psyllium husk capsules, like Meta Mucil, which work after a few days by adding some bulk, and you can continue taking them until you feel safe. I just need about 1/4 of the actual dose, and I take it for 5 days and see how things are working. For me, adding vege carbs, increases my cravings, so I’m not going to take that chance.

Blood ketones are going to be lower, mine range from about .4 to .6, but if I test them first thing in the morning before coffee, I get readings of 1 or higher. After fasting till dinner OMAD, they go down to .4, where under Keto they would go up while fasting. I have no idea of this science, but it is a fact that Ketone’s will be lower, but you can’t help being in a some state of ketosis as long as you are not introducing vege’s/carbs. No carbs = No glucose/insulin fluctuations=No worries.

I’m in this for mental clarity, weight loss, and for craving issues. and I see some improvement in all after being in and out of carnivore for a few months, but it’s going to take a while. For May 0, I have been strict for 2 1/2 weeks and will see this through for the month, and then through the summer as well, with maybe a few cheat items once in a while, but as little as possible. ( I know, but overall I’m thinking that I will eventually adopt a keto carnivore-ish lifestyle )

Best of luck with the allergies, it has to be brutal with the job that you do. I can’t imagine!

#1788

ahhh I am so sorry about that.

a lot of fat is the reason probably. We truly have to get fat adapted and then our bodies really do usually ask for less fat in a smaller way. Many get the D in changeover. Best one can do is go leaner meats, think seafood/fish, watch fat intake and see if that makes a difference. Lipase and ox bile are the usual ‘zc way’ to get thru fat adaption. Time is required in zc and monkeying a bit with your fat intake to see where ya land thru this time. I feel for you tho. I am way longer zc now and I have 0 troubles. I hit the bathroom one time, for a few minutes in the morning, let out a small super solid amt. since we use up our meat so well in digestion, and done for the day and never think twice about bathroom ever. But when I started I had to switch around a bit on my fat intake, but for me it was never that bad cause I was an extreme low carber, already becoming super fat adapted when I went full in zc.

I am an allergy person also. I get sinus troubles. Pressure in the eyes, leaking nose, eyes and can get very fatigued and live on sinus/allergy drugs during early spring with the blooms of everything around, mowing grass and more…and I just fight it best I can. When allergic stuff goes down, boy unless you go full in allergy tests etc. who knows the true culprit or culpritS cause there can be tons effecting us and no I haven’t had zc truly help on this. My allergies are there and it is what it is for me. I feel your pain on this one.

Ketones. ZC is not necessarily a being in nutritional ketosis plan. Also longer you are zc of course our ketone readings will change and only bloodwork will show your true ketones and how they burn and produce in your body. As we changeover and dump certain ketones they can be seen on a pee stick etc…but as we adjust, ketone levels are just not that original dumping of the first ketones burned in big volume. If you are zc you are ketogenic burn body definitely…but when one manipulates, controls food etc. you can control those ketones to your advantage if you want ketones at a certain level. Of course on ZC ketone measuring means nothing to us actually. We don’t do ketone numbers but I understand many love to check their levels.

Hoping nothing but the best for ya!!!

#1789

Hey there Kristen Ann!
Disaster pants is definitely a side effect to getting used to carnivore.
I agree with Fangs on fat. Even after all this time if I overdo it on fat I can have issues. Rendered fats can especially be a problem

Also, drinking with or too soon after a meal can cause it. If I eat a fatty meal I now try to avoid drinking for a while afterwards.

Hope you get it dialed in.

#1790

yea this is me too. I know my limits of where to push my fat intake and rendered fat is def. a problem for me also. Many of us zc’ers are exactly like this and we just find our path thru it as learn as we go along…great insights on it truly cause it does happen like this for many of us but something that is controllable as we learn and move forward.

#1791

I will post HIP HIP HOORAY here also. my super clean meat eating has given me a 1 lb. loss for May so far. Hey being a very big eater, being I lost most of my weight early on and only want my final vanity lbs. gone now, I am cool with losses being super slow. I live great, I feel fab, I eat so darn well, I have vibrancy to life and body composition is slowly also changing. Lean and mean ZC machine HAHA

1 lb. done, hey I love it but being human I would like my last 20-25 vanity lbs. gone, hey I will take day to day life living wonderful over dieting to starve and get goals I can’t hold thru horrible diets any old day LOL

just chatting out about it all for me personally on how I view it all now on my journey

(Kristen Ann) #1792

It is realllly fun. Just an unpleasant view/stench in the direction of the dogs :wink:

I may look into this, thanks. Great suggestions with the psyllium husk capsules… didn’t even think of that!

I don’t doubt that I’m in ketosis, but would prefer higher ketones because I feel better with higher ketone levels.

I don’t know if I agree with this. Protein affects insulin levels (not glucose). I think the lower ketones could be the insulin response to the protein. I actually think my insulin is more sensitive to protein than it is veggie carbs. Though I don’t have a way to test this.

I am truly fat adapted. Started keto Oct 2018.

I’m eating shellfish every day I’m not camping for work, and usually twice a day those days.

I have cut back on HWC and my GI problems have improved a little. I will say that my energy seems to tank when I don’t eat gobs of fat. Having HWC in the morning and mid day seem to help with energy. At first it seemed like I had to eat a ton of calories to have energy but the last few days I haven’t eaten much and seem to be doing good. I may just need to be patient and play with my fat intake to see what works best like you suggest.

Curious if you noticed carnivore having an effect on your allergies (either positive or negative).

I use a blood meter. Also technically not ZC. I’m eating shellfish, dairy, etc which have carbs, but I know I’m in ketosis. Shocked by the 0.1-0.2 blood ketone readings.

Find this hard to believe for all carnivores…

I was eating chunks of beef fat before Carnivore and ruined my taste buds for beef and beef fat. The beef fat made me feel better physically and mentally but was making me gag, badly. I tried lots of different ways of cooking and eating it, but now I even gag eating a ribeye steak or beef ribs. I can eat 70/30 ground chuck though without gagging. I also have troubles with chicken and fatty cuts of pork… Like histamine/inflammation issues. So I’m having trouble meeting my fat needs without HWC. But I’ll just keep trying to add beef back in my diet in hopes that my taste for it will return.

Like drinking water? Interesting…

#1793

ok bit of reply.

keto is not and never will be full on zero carb experience. so if one never walks the truth of zero carb and hold it long term any personal experiences against a full on zc’er just can’t and won’t every compete or compare. fat adapted zc is never and won’t be fat adapted keto. Never apples to oranges on this one.

yes you have to remember dairy fat and meat fat is never equal. meat fat trumps dairy all the time. So if we drop dairy cause it could be the trouble guy here, then if we elim. that and just track us on the other fat. A tiny bit of dairy, and one would never think a tiny bit could nail us, it can but that is a super personal call on dairy and our own bodies. So yea do YOU at all times and bob and weave thru what you need personally to suit you. We all go thru this :slight_smile:

Carbs wrapped in meat/seafood protein mean nothing. They are not wrapped in plant toxins and not mean anything to a zc’er. NOW will only meat play the ‘ketogenic’ game, yes it will and can effect BS and can it change up long term ‘low ketone’ numbers etc. Yes.
but the one thing is ketones mean nothing to all of us zc people unless you want nutritional ketosis in carnivore which is more of a PKD protocol.

as we eat nothing else…the correlation of being in ketosis and low numbers and how they change (there are a bunch of ketones we burn and what shows on ‘tests’, even blood etc)…longer and longer on plan they mean nothing to a zc person unless we are a must track everything personality in that what you track now is not what your 1 yr, 2 yr and more numbers will ever equal and all that time in total elimination of plant material in your diet.

so just some thoughts to think about :slight_smile:

beef, chicken bad for ya, pork maybe, all seafood and fish options are loaded out there and truly, one day, you might jump onto a beef steak and think, WTH? I always do bad on this yet your body healed enough to ask for it, love it and more.

so time on true zc plan means the word as we walk thru the individual path we have to handle.

so that being said…allergies are allergies LOL I don’t think just meat/seafood will ever kill pollen up my nose HAHA So, no, my seasonal allergies are not really controlled in any way but my personal body against allergies to plant toxins I might eat are well improved. I had some cocktail sauce with shrimp in the past and my tongue went numb. Horseradish I am sure numbed my mouth, allergy? no, just plant toxins telling me to never eat that crap again kinda thing.

and Bob is right in that water intake around your food meal can make or break some. I never had this but others find it is a real thing individually to them, so do zc for you and bob and weave thru it all.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #1794

I believe fat adapted is fat adapted. If I’m wrong please explain why.

Fat adapted means your body easily burns fat for energy. That has nothing to do with what you’re eating. If carbohydrates are limited enough to be an insignificant fuel source then you’re forced to use fat as fuel. Yeah walk the walk if you want the ZC results. You may truthfully argue that eating any plants isn’t Carnivore or ZC but there’s no further level of fat adaptation doing ZC. Lot’s of people burn ridiculous amounts of body fat on KETO and many lose fat more slowly on Carnivore. I lost fast eating Carnivore but many don’t. I wouldn’t say that’s another level of fat adaptation. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Kristen Ann) #1795

Please explain the science here…

Still not understanding this… Also PKD is carnivore… so what carnivores are you speaking for exactly?

I see your point lol, but I was thinking more on the lines of allergies may have a cumulative effect when you have underlying inflammation from diet.

Thanks for the response.

#1796

yea I get what you mean about allergies from like plant toxin accumulation in the body causing inflammation and more…thing is for me I know I improved a gazillion percent when I dropped all plants from my menu, but seasonal pollen just effects me on direct contact kinda thing. So yea I see what you mean about inflammation and issues from internal possibly food intake allergy situations? Other than eat plant, get icky…like some eat dairy and get runny eyes and nose and gut troubles, but without doing allergy tests to everything I guess a lot of that could be up for grabs kinda.

on the ketones, we know if we go all in carnivore you are burning only ketones. you are a ketone burner and not any glucose is taken in, even in small form so longer one stays on plan and eat as much meat as you need and desire, you could easily not be in ‘this lower ketosis’ burning mode. Plus our ketones build, dump, change and are way different longer we stay on plan then someone starting new into this and burning off tons of a common ketone that is a normal process. So if you want to control your ketosis and have your ketones in a certain area at all times, the PKD is a 2:1 ratio that puts emphasis on fat intake vs. protein intake and with a lower protein intake you can keep your ketone levels to a controlled ‘in low ketosis’ numbers vs. just eating a normal zc menu and not giving ketones the time of day. I hope that makes some sense in what I am saying LOL

Fat adapted on keto while still ingesting plants and maybe sweeteners etc. will never equal fat adaption in being zc with absolutely no plant intake and no fake sweetener intake. Keto food is not zc plan food. Those differences mean when one drops keto and goes full on zc you can find you have to absolutely adapt thru again and can easily have all kinds of adaption troubles. Even small plant material in our menus when dropped can be seen as rough thru adaption for some and they do get effects. Plus oxalate dumping and more will come into play when you go even from a low carb intake with keto to zc. Your body will have to fat adapt even more when all plants and fake sweeteners if eaten are dropped. Your meat/fat intake only will mean your body will adapt thru again and will hit a new level of fat adaption. That is kinda what I am saying on this one.

I love chatting this stuff :slight_smile: It is good to just do you ya know, just feel what the food you eat does for you or against you and then we can find our right path to follow. That is what I did. I found all the meat and seafood that works for me, what fat content I require at any given time and just listen to my body and let it happen and just cruise along :wink:

#1797

Hi guys. Now that I wrote a too long comment I want to abandon, I write this. If anyone has problem with my totally not carnivore woe (I try and I need even less meat for it now than in the beginning but my circumstances are problematic), maybe don’t read this. It’s connected as I try to do carnivore, it’s just a tad tricky and I fell off the wagon a lot. But I don’t give up. I always will have carnivore and especially carnivore-ish days, they are the best ones. I still can’t have only/mostly them but maybe I will find a way.

@David_Stilley: Losing fat is something else again, we don’t need keto for that (it often helps a lot, of course. or not, we are different). Lots of people lose fat quickly eating much carbs and not being fat adapted. The energy must come from somewhere, after all and satiation is individual (and some people are willing to be hungry a lot anyway). And out fat is there to be burned if needed, a normal body does that fine.

But I think too that fat adapted is fat adapted. Not like I know much about fat adaptation, I just enjoy it. But it’s connected with very low carb intake and keto has it too.

@Fangs, you wrote it’s different but didn’t explain why. What does plant matter do with fat adaptation? The body gets little carbs from the outside, it must get fat adapted… Plants may have zillion effects on our body but what it is regarding fat adaptation?

Hmmm, adaptation troubles. What does it mean if someone has zero adaptation problems like me? (I will totally try carnivore longer term as soon as I can get enough and proper meat, I only have access to smoked pork and some fish. Some people have problems later and I am curious. And quite sure I wouldn’t have problems. It’s not my style. But I can’t possibly know for sure.) I did things gradually and still think fat was my primary fuel all my life (probably. I didn’t track but I ate VERY fatty, carbs had little chance to be number one on most days as they triggered hunger and that triggered eating more fat and fatty protein). Or is it simply individual? There are more resilient and quite healthy people and that’s it? Maybe I never will know much about these…

What can sweeteners (the ones without net carbs) do with fat adaptation? They don’t provide usable carbs either. I don’t know how they can interfere, probably in various interesting ways. They seem to interfere with fat-loss too and not just because they make one eating more. That’s a pretty weird reaction to me.
Sweeteners are about the first things I allow when I can’t do carnivore due to lack of meat. They don’t harm me and I can stay close to carnivore (more like keeping my net carbs super low, that’s what is important for me, after all though I don’t plan to eat flax either and it barely have any net carbs. still. it’s in the past). Gluten is similar but the other plant matter just cause problems if the amount isn’t super tiny. It’s surely very individual… I try not to eat sweeteners and gluten but it’s not like I have better options until I can get meat (and maybe even later, I don’t know if I can handle much meat for long. but it probably wouldn’t be a problem if I had enough variety).

I bought pork today, I already run out of it days ago, I missed it and my days became chaotic, I couldn’t become satiated easily even on my 13 egg day (personal record, I guess). The little shop of the pig farm is very nice, I socialize there :slight_smile: The lady is lovely and love their pigs. She eats meat only once or twice per week but started to eat less carbs because she realized her body loves that. I will talk with her about this topic more, there wasn’t time for it now. Or ask more about the guy who sell rabbits… Oh well, we will have rabbits in the end of summer from the usual source. Fruit season started already, I surely won’t have long carni periods. I think about doing at least “every second day is carnivore” as it lowers my net carb intake therefore my calories and it’s what matters to me (and a lot of other things, I don’t want to supplement magnesium but I probably need more meat for that. I wonder if just eating more fish would be enough).
But if I can do it, I want longer periods of carnivore-ish (if it’s not a single day, I will add tiny amounts of plant matter) as I never handled alternating days so well. I like stability. And I don’t need to eat fruits every second day, no matter how much I have in my garden. I changed. I am actually quite curious about my fruit consumption this year. It won’t be much, it’s clear but we will see what exactly will happen (and how many edible-even-alone fruits are left… stupid modern fruits are insanely sugary. though dairy shocked me more. my beloved heavy cream and sour cream aren’t too sugary to me, fortunately. heavy cream is for desserts in my life so that could be much sweeter without problems. but I dislike overly sweetness in not sweet dishes. I probably will stop eating vegetable soups even off keto, they are too sweet, even the low-carb vegetables. and I don’t want vegetables anyway. I want soups but I have no proper meat to make good soups. fine, I will use just eggs).

(Not a cow) #1798

Agreed, protein does affect insulin, and it also makes sense that this is a contributor to lower ketone levels, but I am more of the opinion that the insulin spikes from protein are healthy, and fairly low because I am still in ketosis and likely burning fat and not storing. I think I felt better with higher ketones as well but the cravings were too much for me, to stay away from bad carbs. Carnivore so far is helping with this, but still too early to tell. As I don’t think my body is fully adapted yet with carnivore

#1799

what I am trying to say about fat adaption is the correlation with keeping carbs in a menu like on a keto plan, even tho very low is still no zero and then the ‘big picture’ of those effects. Yes Keto people can fat adapt, but they also are eating way different than a total zero carb person. They can be very strict and clean eating like into the low maybe 10g or have a 20g day or even go a bit higher like into 40 g or have an all out ‘cheat day’ and play with carbs and they also may allow fake sweeteners or protein drinks with whey and more and then you got veg which has low level toxins to cause inflammation in our bodies and more…so a keto person may jump around the glocouse level intake etc and then when one goes into zc you come into a new fat adaption phase truly. And with new fat adaption we go thru other adaption also…even those coming off a 10-20g keto plan into carnivore are surprised sometimes by what adaption they still have to handle as they transition. And if one is limiting protein and fat on keto etc…when one comes into zc as eat all the meat/seafood you need, your fat intake etc can monkey with you as we transition, etc…so that is what I am saying.

keto is not and never will be the same on a zc plan. zc is a critter all its own because we do no carbs. no plant material. we do no fake sweeteners and we don’t go off that mark. We don’t play a carb jumping game on a daily basis of any kind. And when no plants etc come into play we do oxalate dumping and more to a higher level with changing inflammation in our bodies and more as we heal from keeping carbs at bay.

Yes there is a day once a month or whatever some of us zc people might eat something small but it is never a larger type situation (if one is committed to this plan) in that we aren’t around the board being some glucose burn and then ketone burn etc. We stay ketone burn all the time. A very rare intake of plant or fake sweetener or alcohol or something like that isn’t a daily jump and down of carb intake like a keto plan. And all carbs effect our bodies even if lower, hence when one comes into zc even from a tight low carb keto plan, they usual get some more adaption of all kinds hitting them. I luckily got a smaller hit on adaption cause I stayed like 10-15g total carbs all the time while jumping in and out of zc as I was learning and leaning toward this plan. Never saying keto plan isn’t fab for many cause it is, but it isn’t an apples to oranges comparison to a zc plan ever. There are no true comparisons in a plan that has 0 carb to one that does and has possible other choices like keto desserts, protein shakes, and that kind of choices.

so that is kinda what I was trying to say about fat adaption and other adaption will come into play again as one hits into full on true zc and holds that plan tight.

#1800

good post Moo

and yea it takes more time than one thinks truly. we all are adapting and dumping toxins and healing internally and a lot of that healing we never truly see but can ‘feel a bit’ and know we aren’t quite there yet.

luckily me being years into this plan I am there :slight_smile: I truly know me inside and out on food hit for a day I require, I feel wonderful, I only know I ‘go off’ when I get very not hungry, eat less meat and fat and then find myself kinda craving things cause I didn’t eat as well as I should and all that jazz LOL

congrats on your lbs. down also…shows your body is healing and letting loose of some of that weight that is a symptom of our unhealthy body…cool!

protein and fat is all the physical body must have for total survival. water included of course :slight_smile: not one carb, but carbs/glucose burn is to me our backup survival system to live on as we hunt and find our protein/fat we need to true health.

(Kristen Ann) #1801

I agree they are different.

Again, I’m not zero carb because I’m consuming dairy and shellfish.

But I don’t agree fat adaption is different for carnivores, zc, or keto people. Sorry. I don’t see how efficiently burning fat for fuel is different for those consuming 0 carbs, 10 carbs, or 20 carbs, etc.

(Linda ) #1802

I Think what Fangs is referring to is the degree of fat adaption is different…example somone on paleo has fat adaption too, but not to the degree that keto does and keto although we are fully fat adapted if your carbs are low enough you still may not receive all benifits of going zc and what they get throwing away those remaining carbs…but eating zc also takes time for the body to adjust just as it did going into keto even if you had been low carb.

(Kristen Ann) #1803

I agree with all of this. Benefits that you may get from going carnivore include lower oxalate intake, increased availability of minerals & nutrients, etc. I also agree that there is a major adjustment your body goes through when going carnivore from keto.

But I don’t see how fat adaption is different on carnivore than it is keto. My body already knows how to use fat as fuel. Is the process of using fat somehow different on carnivore than keto?

(Linda ) #1804

(Volek, 2011; Volek, 2016). Whereas fat adaptation can occur to different degrees and across a spectrum dependent on the degree of carb restriction, keto-adaptation represents a more comprehensive reshaping of many physiologic systems. Keto-adaptation only happens when carbs are restricted to a point that induces sustained nutritional ketosis. The nuances here are subtle, but meaningful. For example, moderately restricting carbs (e.g., adaptation to a Paleo diet) may induce some degree of fat-adaptation and perceived benefits, but falls short of maximizing fat oxidation and producing positive health outcomes specifically linked to nutritional ketosis. A keto-adapted person is by definition fully fat-adapted, but a fat-adapted person may not be keto-adapted.

(Kristen Ann) #1805

Yes, my point. I am fully fat-adapted coming from 21 months of keto diet. Are you saying carnivore is more than “fully” fat-adapted?