Another Carnivore Thread

#1162

So I went and had a look at phosvitin. It’s a phosphate heavy glycoprotein that makes up about 4% of the protein in egg yolk. Egg yolk is mainly fat and has a lot of other important nutrients like choline.

So there is a small amount and the phosphate in it makes it heavily bind to metals, like iron.

But here’s the thing. It binds the available iron in the egg yolk. That’s it. It’s not like it is released from egg yolks to bind up all the bioavailable iron from a steak. As it is already bound to the iron and other metal ions in the egg yolk. It just means it makes egg yolks less able to provide iron from the egg yolk.

Return to normal beef eating. And egg eating. All we gained was some knowledge and all we lost was some worry.

#1163

Thanks FB…I was gonna take time to go research that but ya did it for me. Appreciate that info. Cool :slight_smile:

#1164

Carnivore.

Old school vs. new school.

Holy…lol…I tell ya when I did carnivore about 5 years ago and started my exploration of it all, it was always called zero carb of course and carnivore hadn’t taken over so strong yet. Carnivore became the money maker name I think for many like Baker and others. Put that ‘good branding name’ to it and ran with it, put it out there. ‘name zero carb’ is boring to many HAHA but Carnivore…ewww….that draws big attention LOL

anyway…now I search out videos and info on carnivore and they are starting to ‘macro it to death’ and ‘tips on how to change up carnivore’ to make it ALL about the weight loss. Manipulate and monkey with IF YOU want these lbs. gone. ‘count kcals’ is included in that…OMG!!!

I say OMG cause carnivore is being warped but it can be like any other menu plan. Any and all plans can be warped/tweaked/macro’d/kcal counting/etc. to ‘force’ faster changes in the body, ie. mostly weight loss as people do want that fast as heck…who doesn’t? I raise my hand, I want some more lbs gone fast as I can get them gone.

So I am on that fence. And I hate being here, it hurts my azz to no end.

Does one monkey with macros and watch kcals and fat ratios etc…as in 2:1 (like PKD) but the 2:1 is focusing on ‘all about weight loss’ in carnivore etc………or does one do it the old school way of ‘just eat the meat and shut up and drink the water and leave it all alone’…your body will tell ya what to do.

I follow the shut up and eat and body will tell ya what to do…but dare I say I got that itch…hmmm, start to monkey with it a bit. Take ‘control and manipulation’ over it and what can I get out of that? Probably for me no good in that I despise any tracking etc. I despise weighing food to put into an app and know the ratio/kcals etc. I get antsy real fast having to ‘work so damn hard’ at ‘dieting’…cause to me when I do that, track/control/manipulate my eating it is friggin’ dieting at this point and dieting annoys the hell out of me truly. One reason I went carni. To eat well til full and not have to do a thing about it. Lost great weight doing just that, but SLOW weight loss. Not the ‘dieting the heck out of my food’ and whooshing off the bigger lbs faster.

I don’t know. Just chatting out some stuff that I see going down out there. Vids and info on ‘how to do differernt’ hacks on carnivore etc. Is it good? I guess it boils down to truly how ya wanna roll thru life. Love tracking? Into it? Wanna try it etc…yea I get that. Me, the one who despises all of it and doesn’t wanna go there, old school carnivore for me.

but I feel that draw of the new school of carnivore.

but what worries me is can one ‘manipulate’ too much ya know where you take all the good of feeding the body it wants and you limit and control overly and f up the true benefits of what carnivore should be doing for you? cause we can easily f up the body when we don’t listen to it. Hungry but you ate your macro amts for the day? whata do now? just starve til you can eat again? hmm, not liking any of that part LOL

so just acknowledging how zero carb has changed to a more ‘we can fancy up the carnivore plan’ any way we like and it is now more ‘tweaked and f’d’ up out there on some videos I am seeing.

Kinda like Keto got nailed as did LC. A millions ways to control and manipulate and change up a basic plan.

So how far does one walk from the ‘real plan’ you are doing? Good guestion for me to think about actually.

But remember, zero carb or fancy carnivore name…it means eating no plants HAHA that won’t change thank goodness LOL

(bulkbiker) #1165

Most people following PKD protocols are doing it to recover from some pretty serious conditions… I’m not sure that even PKD would recommend their way of eating for all…

Just a thought…

#1166

That is a really good thought! I agree with you, it is not an easy way to eat at all in truth when ya think about it just like you said.

So ‘some carnivore vids’ making this a weight loss hack on carnivore of 2:1 is really kinda doing an injustice to the plan. Heck regular old carnivore is a hard change over, imagine coming from that video and starting, straight into something harder and macro confusing.

So true Mark…very good point.

LC and Keto Plan vids went crazy, now it is carnivore time for vids to go crazy. Confuse newbies with all the junk posted out there. It can be rough LOL

(bulkbiker) #1167

Agree… still think that the “eat meat” message is still the loudest out there so there is some hope!

#1168

Thanks FB for doing more reading :slight_smile:

But in her case (she’s very anemic) since she’s on a mostly vegetarian diet with eggs, it could prevent her absorbing the iron eggs would have provided? Her diet is/was veggies, some fish, eggs, lots of dairy (with calcium that also decreases iron absorption) and bread…

Beans and nuts have iron, but they also have phtyic acid, an anti-nutrient…what a rabbit hole

(Full Metal KETO AF) #1169

Of course the answer is “Shut up and eat your meat!” You can’t be more worried about the life of a cow than your own health, that never makes sense to me. But I realize we’re in the realm of emotional eating here. :cowboy_hat_face:

#1170

What you said…:fist_right::fist_left: but she won’t do that… :frowning: If she wasn’t my dearest friend, I would have said: “oh well, more beef for me.” :wink:

(Full Metal KETO AF) #1171

@Meerkatsandy Oysters are high in iron and a fantastic source possibly for her. :cowboy_hat_face:

#1172

Thanks!
It still means I need to eat other things than eggs but I knew that already :smiley:
So it’s like eating a whole raw egg and not worrying about biotin as I only lose the amount in that single egg. As long as my other food provides my need, it should be fine.

#1173

I can relate.
I track often. I am curious and it can be informative sometimes.
But it’s not true life. I always was looking forward to the times when I can forget this. I pity the pour souls who do it forever, maybe it’s not that horrible and better than the other option but still. It’s stressful. I always take breaks even if I happen to track for a while.

And I have little to no control except I chose my diet, limiting the items I consume is very easy, the others are hard. I don’t lose ANY fat just because I track and even do my best to eat as little as I can. My body wants its food and my body gets its food… (My silly “eating without need” sessions are another thing but I got better at those and anyway, things get balanced out so they don’t matter much, I just eat less later.)
It’s called calorie counting and yep, I count. I don’t particularly limit my calories, how could I do that? If I ate 200g fat instead of 100 and I am hungry, I obviously will eat some fat along with my protein, I have priorities and some more or less fixed numbers never win. (I never had a fat limit, actually. I couldn’t care less about that. But I can’t afford a high number if I need little energy. Not like it controls my eating at all as wrote.)

I reached this weight before I started tracking except I used it for some days to figure out what satiates me better. Less carbs. And my strict paleo day had >200g carbs (I loved my vegetables), wow. So, it was informative. But I automatically ate and lost fat when I lowered my carbs, tracking wasn’t needed at all so I skipped that annoyance.

So it’s about finding a method that allows me to lose fat, not choosing a method and forcing myself to be hungry. I don’t do that. Once I actually did. I simply went to bed hungry. I woke up starved and miserable, ate a ton in the next 2 days and felt alive again. My weight was my least concern. It was like worrying about the beauty of our skin when we are tortured with knifes. I never did that again. Eating at 2-3am isn’t nice either the next day but way better. I rarely need that though, a good lunch and maybe a dinner does the trick.

My body manipulates me sometimes, not vice versa. I try to trick it. It’s hard, people are so amazing that they do IF or keto or they get stressed or something and bam! Their body is fine with almost no food, I mean, no complaining. Mine isn’t like that and it’s not necessarily a bad thing but my body wants to maintain this state and I don’t want that. But I alone am powerless except I can make lots of effort to find a good, effective method. I find something after a few years but it stops being effective after some days, usually. But I am really hopeful now.

Especially that I surely will win something even if my fat reserves stay the same. Perfect satiation, better nutrition, losing food addictions… And fun and joy and deliciousness, learning about a new world.
And I surely will eat less than on a carbier diet while I will be more satiated, it’s inavoidable, I function that way. It’s just not necessarily enough to lose fat. But I am sure it will happen eventually. For now, I just eliminate some annoying problems. Maybe it will be enough.

#1174

She eats animals already, why she is against more? (Though my emotions towards fish are different too… I don’t like fish. I like most animals, pigs, cats, spiders, wasps, hyenas… Fish are below them. I just almost never eat them as I don’t like even their meat.)

I have no idea what happens with her but I barely ate any meat (including fish and other seafood… I mean I ate meat a few times per year) for decades and never had iron problems even though I am a woman. I suppose the antinutrients couldn’t do that serious damage with my nutrition… I ate extremely much too, at least when I still ate high-carb. Then I ate eggs, nuts and vegetables, way less amounts of food (but probably more nutritious in average) and I still was fine as far as I could tell, I don’t go to doctors unless I have some problem (like, a possibly broken bone). I have mostly good genes regarding health and it surely matters a bit but the iron MUST come from somewhere, I almost never took any supplements and definitely not iron.
There is probably some research somewhere… But seriously, she eats animals. Why not to eat more and very very useful animals? I hate animal cruelty and who-knows-what in most meat but I trust a seemingly nice farm (and become flexible in some cases when I have no better options. I do much for my principles but there is a limit, my eating and health has a very high priority). There are so many animals to eat besides fish, we can choose if we have problems with some.

Did I mentioned already I want cricket flour? :slight_smile: Even my SO wants cricket flour, it sounds fun. Crickets are tasty, I heard.

(Andrea) #1175

I had quite bad anaemia for most of my life but since I went keto and reduced inflammation, it’s got significantly better and I haevn’t needed supplements since. Anaemia can be caused by inflammation (in my case psoriasis and arthritis).

(Susan) #1176

Awesome, that will be great =).

#1177

Unfortunately the metal micronutrients are not available due to being bound up. But there were more papers in the research list looking at supplements (dietary additives) to access that egg yolk iron. I didn’t read that far.

As mentioned by others, anemia has multiple potential causes, more so than just lack of dietary accessible iron to form the haemaglobin molecule in red blood cells. Inflammation, even extending toward autoimmune diseases, are seemingly common issues for vegetarian type eaters. Not to say meat eaters or fat eaters are immune to autoimmune diseases. Probably just to say that severe anaemia probably needs revisiting, if its root cause remains undiagnosed.

The other way to look at phytic acid or phytates in legumes and seeds is, not as an anti-nutrient, as popular discourse over swing would currently have it, but just with a slight name change, as a binder.

Fair enough in a metabolic dietary situation where the nutrient is needed because the person is in a state of measurable nutrient deficiency, then it may deserve the anti-nutrient title.

In people eating large amounts of meat, the iron binding effect of the phytates may be protective against excess of iron. That is also measurable in blood tests. With iron being an oxidative reactive cation when allowed in the body unbound. That mechanism is part of the anaemic meat causes cancer meme.

Dr. James DiNicolantono (The Salt Fix) talks about phytates from this angle in some of his podcast interviews.

Just like one person’s terrorist,is another person’s freedom fighter, maybe one person’s phytate plant antinutrient is another person’s cancer fighting oxidative molecule binder?

The initial n=1 dietary context is always a key factor.

Metabolic Flexibility - Get Real
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #1178

Aren’t there two types of iron: heme iron (animal sources) and non-heme iron (plant sources)? My understanding is that plant Phytic acid only binds non-heme iron. I don’t recall the source for this but I’ll look for it and add when I find it.

Here:

The specific section that discusses heme and non-heme iron:

Scared to start fasting - I'm always hungry!
(Ashley) #1179

Putting on weight, decided to weigh myself cause felt bit not well today as I’m trying to switch to fully decaf. Up like 3lbs? Something like that. I’m not worried as I have ate a lot on eating days and I think my body is just adjusting!

#1180

They make the statement and link a reference. But if the reference is checked it is difficult to see that it supports, or even relates to the stated claim that heme-iron is not affected by phytic acid.

Non-heme iron from plant-derived foods is poorly absorbed, while the absorption of heme-iron is efficient. Non-heme iron is also highly affected by phytic acid, whereas heme-iron is not (18Trusted Source).

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #1181

@FrankoBear thanks for pointing out that. This article seems to be more on point about the differences between heme and non-heme iron. It also has links to specific studies, although I have not yet looked at all of them.

https://hemochromatosishelp.com/heme-iron-vs-non-heme-iron/