Amy Berger measuring ketones

fatburn
acac
testing
science
ketones
(Jason Fletcher) #1


This was posted today. I have been fascinated with how the body uses ketones and AcAc. This made me think more or on how efficient the body can become at burning fat and how when it is doing so that we really do not have a good way to measure it in the end. Even breath acetone will not tell the full story because if your body is burning fat truly efficiently you will not produce ketones or AcAc to be burned. It looks like when you can measure something with whatever the test breath, blood, urine it just shows you how inefficient your body is at burning fat or using energy properly.

Blood keto monitoring
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

A fascinating article, and very helpful. Thank you, Jason, for posting it.

(Adam Kirby) #3

Fantastic article. Unless you specifically need ketosis for brain problems, measuring your ketones is an absolute waste of time.

(KCKO, KCFO) #4

I just posted the same link in another thread. Love her blog.

(Mark Rhodes) #5

Validating article. This is a point I talk with the wife about. Her weight success or lack of rapid loss compared to my improvements has discouraged her somewhat and I have tried to explain that high ketones do not indicate higher fat loss for these reasons. And that adding Brain Octane will increase measurable ketones but not the ability to use them. I have suggested she take BS readings prior to a meal and two hours after to gauge how well her metabolism reacts to specific food choices, particularly her vegetable heavier meals and lack of animal fats ( well within general macros but likely not good for her progress-without testing how can we know?) We can make assumptions about insulin based on BS readings.

(Jason Fletcher) #6

Track all food. Fat macros do matter if you are in surplus you will not lose. The low insulin from a ketogenic diet makes over eating calories more forgiving but they still matter. After reading this the more ketones she has may just show she has more energy then she is using. I remember reading if you use use Mct oil and your ketones rise then fall fast This will indicate how efficient your body is at using them.

(Mark Rhodes) #7

jason- My opinion only, I have seen too many n=1 experiments now with people eating keto for 21 days or longer at 5000 kcal and not adding weight. People especially in the beginning do need to convince their bodies that calories are not an issue and I do not really think many of us can over consume these high fatty meals. We get full too fast and top out at about 3000 kcal. I am not suggesting 5000 for anybody I am suggesting that male or female if you are not between 1800-2500 you are likely underfeeding. Less calories inhibits metabolic health. If I eat 6 meals at 300 kcal I get six insulin spikes and inhibit my ability to access fat. If I eat one 2400 kcal meal and get only one insulin spike I have about 19 hours to access fat. So CICO is an outdated model.

As to MCT, yep for me. I experimented. I would test either blood or breath prior to ingesting a shot glass of Brain Octane. Within the hour I would hit 85 PPM or 2.5mmol. Less than two hours after that ( and an elevated temperature) I would come back down to my average. I stopped doing that. No benefit to raising the ketones with no need for them. Instead my body just jacked up my BMR raising my body temp to burn off all that jet fuel! LOL! Plus I was late for work once trying 2 shot glasses for, uhm, other digestive issues!

(Jason Fletcher) #8

They add some body if they start lean in most cases but it is never a pound for every 3000 cal over BMR.

Your body does not care.

This very subjective and in cases where you increase the palatability of the foods over eating is easy. BPC and FB’s. Or just making food taste awesome.

With BPC and FB you don’t get full and could add 1 or 2 tbls of butter and would not notice the difference.

Only if your demand for energy is greater then that.

Restricting calories in any form will cause the body to lower BMR to some point. A lower BMR does not mean it is unhealthy

Yes this is true and your body will drop BMR or increase demand for glucose with GNG.

This depends on insulin resistance and activity level and kind of exercise.
The results for weight loss if calorie restricting using the fast will result in less muscle loss and ending higher BMR. Plus you will not hungry all the time if you are insulin resistant.

When it comes to curing insulin resistance and maintaining BMR and transforming body composition not all macros are the same or are all the different proteins fats and carbs they are made of. They can’t be judged by there Calories.

This is something i have been looking into. Since the use of ketones increase brown fat and mct oil just gets burned of like you say. I have been wondering if the increased use of mct oil would increase the demand for more lipids to be used by the BAT. Increasing your over all BMR when you are not taking MCT oil. Plus i would like to be able to take 3 table spoons of mct oil in the winter and be able to walk around without a jacket on without freezing my ass off

(Mark Rhodes) #9

http://2ketodudes.com/show.aspx?episode=61 would be one source easily found within these pages.

I find it interesting that you like myself wondered about other uses of MCT oil. My wife takes it for cognitive reasons. I get no rush or boost of energy. So I stopped. I too thought possibly that periodically timed use could promote higher loss but I also thought that you would need tests I do not have access to so the timing would likely be trial and error, mostly error. LOL.

My comments are as stated, people especially in the beginning. I do think our thoughts are responsible for many feelings (physical) and attempting to eliminate the calorie deficit idea is a primary concern, Later each individual must find out what their own thresholds are and as you say corresponding to energy demands as well as hormonal inputs and outputs. I will maintain the analogy to a household budget, its a metaphor that works ans as I stated elsewhere in the forum, when you get a raise you usually do not save, you spend more.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #10

I find this business about overeating on keto to be a bit confusing. I guess my body’s pretty good at signaling satiety, because I’ll get to the point where food just suddenly loses all its attraction. There’s no way I could eat past that point, even though I rarely feel full when it happens. I could see eating too much protein without realizing it, but not too much fat.

In fact, I’m beginning to understand a reference I read a while ago to “ketotic anorexia.” It’s a good name for it, a complete lack of interest in food. (Except, differently from anorexia nervosa, I do eventually get hungry again.)

(Jason Fletcher) #11

This would be subjective to your goal. So if your goal as a male was to go from 15% body fat to 10% body fat. Eating more then what will move your body fat % down to 10% would be over eating.

Right now it is and once your weight maintains at a body fat % point you would may find it more difficult to lower body fat lower without having to make a effort to eat less.

This was covered in the blog posted here.

(Adam Kirby) #12

I had this very problem, eating “to satiety” on low carb stalled me out for 6 months, even though I had plenty of body fat left. Letting your hunger signals guide you is great if you don’t have a specific body fat % goal in mind, if you do there may be more work required.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

Aahhh, now it’s starting to make sense. Obviously I still have a lot to learn about this keto thing. Thanks for being patient with my ignorance and confusion. :pray:

(Jason Fletcher) #14

This may be true in the beginning adapting to keto when a person starts with high insulin. Plus they lack the digestive ability to deal with the large amount of fat. Plus with a high body fat % there BMR is far higher because of it.
To start with the main reason keto is so effective with a number of over weight individuals is that they are insulin resistant. So by lowing insulin they are able to balance energy demand with the fat on there body. Lowering stresses that push them to over eat.This is one factor that helps with satiation.
Once the person losses weight there BMR lowers plus there insulin sensitivity increases. Plus there digestive system starts to become more effective at digesting the fat rather then crapping some of it out.
When all these factors come into play the amount of fat you ingest will be more critical to determining weight loss. When you eat fat in a surplus and are insulin resistant you will not be able to store the fat without a massive insulin spike. But when you heal your insulin resistance it will take a smaller amount of insulin to store that same energy. So protein does spike insulin and by decreasing it you will be able to eat more fat without gaining weight even when you are insulin sensitive. But at some point the lower protein levels may stop you from other goals like increasing strength and over all muscle mass.

(Mark Rhodes) #15

Could you be so kind as to cite some of your statements?

(Jason Fletcher) #16

what ones specifically?

(Mark Rhodes) #17

In particular these two.

(Jason Fletcher) #18


The section on here has cites about the insulin sensitivity and does a good job at explaining the concept. The interesting part is when people become insulin sensitive and still have a massive insulin spike from food.
Plus you can see why you would want to take advantage of using whey around your workout because the increase sensitively and increase insulin would help maximize up take of amino acids and increase protein synthesis. Negatively eating fat at the same time would be optimal time for it to be stored by your fat cells. But another note about whey is that it does cause the body to release glucagon it can perform the following tasks: Stimulating the liver to break down glycogen to be released into the blood as glucose. Activating gluconeogenesis, the conversion of amino acids into glucose. Breaking down stored fat (triglycerides) into fatty acids for use as fuel by cells.
This insulin sensitivity is how sumo wrestlers can have such high body fat with no metabolic disorders.

You just want to find the level that maximizes protein synthesis and provides the maximum amount of growth. The art and science of low carbohydrate performance suggested protein was .06 to 1 gram per pound of LBM.

(Linda Culbreth) #19

It is my understanding that fats do not raise insulin levels very much.

(Todd Allen) #20

I used to carefully track macros. That wasted far more time and effort than blowing into my $3 breathalyzer. Now I can be far more flexible in my diet. Combined with blood glucose testing I’ve got a pretty good picture of how my body reacts to the foods I eat versus trying to guess based on numbers like the supposed grams of carbohydrate in an average tomato.