Activism in reverse?


(Old Baconian) #61

Now come on, everyone! This is teh Interwebz—so all discussions should involve bad-mouthing people and comparing them to Nazis. All this mature, good-hearted deliberation nonsense has simply got to stop! :grinning: :grinning: :grinning:


(Alec) #62

Can we all please stop being so damned reasonable?


(Cindy) #63

OK, Ron, I’ll stick around for sure! As they say, I ain’t goin’ nowhere!


(Cindy) #64

I think in some cases it’s our doctors who sow this doubt about fat clogging our arteries. I’m struggling with my doctor over this myself. So even though we feel really GREAT about our keto diet and what we’re doing, sometimes we need ammunition to take to a doctor quickly, and this forum is often the fastest way to get directed to the best research.


#65

I’m with you, Alec, on this. I don’t see the posts mentioned. I may even be a topic creator that questions the keto WOE. That’s probably why.

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/kidney-stone-and-heart-palpitations-side-effects/46626

My topic threads have been health issues that have popped up (radar blips) while on LCHF and keto for 3+ yrs. Health issue blips that are most likely due to user error, or path straying, rather than a problem in the basic instructions. Writing about the concurrent health blips in the forums are a method of investigation, gathering knowledge inputs, and making adjustments. in other words, problem solving. The posts being genuine thoughts on the ketogenic diet not being a silver bullet for all ills, or that it does not convey immortality on those that find it, but at the same time being a healthy WOE that smacks down the common diseases of civilisation IF YOU DO IT PROPERLY. The capitalisation is a reminder to self. I wonder how much worse my health would have been without pursuing keto.


#66

The example cited looks like a genuine enquiry. Not least because I’ve posted about cardiac (tachycardia) and kidney concerns in the forum. The base problem for the poster is fear, and the confusion of their current primary care doctor was not helpful. The community were on to it by discovering a maths base problem, and explaining a miscalculation in the protein. The author presented a complex of issues, in a number of organ systems, so it would be a challenge for any contributor to the thread to disassemble the whole problem list and reassemble an action list on common aetiologies. Good on the forum community for having a go.


(Michelle) #67

I read this as “flogging” :rofl::rofl::rofl:


(Kaiden) #68

Flogging is part of the way that the community flagultes itself.


(Alec) #69

Yes, please. Your place or mine? :scream::see_no_evil::joy:


(icky) #70

I happened to read your threads this morning and was thinking “Oooh, here’s one of the threads they were talking about, huh?” :joy::smile::joy::smile:

I dunno. Surely it’s normal to post about the positive AND the negative?

Surely this forum is not some big pro-keto propaganda thing, where all critical concerns must be quashed?

Keto in the way we are applying it is still pretty new and we are all still learning about the pros and cons, so of course critical questions will arise…


#71

We’re posting about adventures and experiences. Anecdotes and observations. We’re all on the good ship ‘Keto WOE’. For some it’s not plain sailing. Some have sea legs in different boats. Some sailors get sea sick. Some haven’t practiced all the knots (some of those being ‘thou shalt’ knots).


#72

I remember when I read this post (the one you linked to), the thing I felt most was “Why in the world is someone with such a dire health condition trying to get medical opinions on an internet forum?”

I sympathize with the frustration that many have with doing (or trying to do) keto and not having doctors well-versed enough to help them troubleshoot issues that come up. But the body is a complex enough organism, that faced with something as serious as kidney damage, I think it’s absolutely vital to have a doctor that you trust guide you through it.

We’re science-minded people here, and some of us even have a good amount of medical knowledge, but I doubt any doctor (keto-friendly or not) in their right mind would want to weigh in on a post like this to the forum without the benefit of the full context of that person’s medical history. I think the best the forum can do for something like this is give people some knowledge that might inform their next visit to the doctor. I cringe every time someone posts about serious and possibly life-threatening medical conditions and are looking for real medical advice here.


(icky) #73

Given that diabetes T1 and T2 are both serious medical conditions as is pre-diabetes, fatty liver, metabolic syndrome, eating disorders, food addiction and obesity related illnesses and given that many folks have autoimmune issues that they have to deal with and many have food intolerances or allergies - where are we all meant to go?

To all those amazing keto-versed doctors out there?

If a keto forum can’t provide information from others going through similar stuff, especially given that keto changes your body quite significantly - metabolism, hormones, electrolytes, keto flu, etc… then what good is a keto forum?

Keto has both risks and benefits, pros and cons and yes, people struggle to get it right.

It’s not just all “Ooh I lost 10 pounds” and “I love bacon”.

Life is complex, diets are complex, medical issues are complex, people are complex.

Of course this stuff is part of any well-functioning keto forum.


#74

You’re right, I should have qualified the statement about “serious diseases” more. The situations that concern me are acute conditions that land people in the ER, or new signs of potentially irreversible organ damage, possibly due to something that has nothing at all to do with keto (and all we have to go by is the context the user thought was relevant to include). Even then, I understand the need for advice and I’m very glad people come here for it. There was something about this post, maybe just the way it was worded and I could have misunderstood, that sounded like it was expecting answers to act upon rather than background knowledge to take to the doctor.

I wish everyone could have a keto-versed doctor, but I know that’s not possible right now. In the meantime, though, in emergency situations there’s no good substitute for the doctor who is right in front of you who knows the full situation.


(icky) #75

Yeah.

I hope that everyone’s being responsible enough to pair the keto-based advice here with the general medical advice they are getting from their doctors.

I know I do.

(Sure, there are always gonna be some foolz who do the ridiculous, but that’s a small number)

From the medical posts I read here, I do get the impression that most ppl are seeing their doctor(s) for their issues and getting standard medical care and advice, but that they are trying to get some additional keto-specific advice here too.

Also, when I think about the conditions/ symptoms I’ve gone to my Dr’s or to ER with and often enough gotten blank stares or totally useless advice… sometimes asking on a forum seems more likely to get a halfway decent answer!! :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

So much so, that I’ve also NOT gone to the Dr’s / ER on a couple of occasions when I SHOULD have (nearly died due to a lung embolism once) because I’d been to the Dr’s / ER with comparable symptoms/ conditions before and gotten zero helpful treatment and/ or an attitude that implied “go home and stop making a fuss”…

So really, unless you have amaaaazing medical insurance and amaaaazing Dr’s, it’s kinda “pretend” to think that ppl will go to a medical provider with their symptoms and get “wonderful, appropriate, helpful treatment”.

If I go to a Dr/ ER with a condition that really bothers and worries me, chances are I’ll spend 4 hours in the waiting room and then get a bland response and maybe a referral to somewhere else, in 5 weeks time, where I will also spend 4 hours in the waiting room to get a bland response.

The reality of the medical system is such that often a forum with some semi-intelligent :wink: folks who have the same symptoms/ medical condition as you, CAN be your best bet - as horrendous/ illogical/ skewed/ depressing as that sounds…


(icky) #76

In fact, when I had tachycardia for a week and then nearly passed out running for the bus due to keto electrolyte issues, I went to the hospital and got nothing but a blank stare.

I was told it was “after hours” for blood work (this was a medical practice IN the hospital, not the ER itself) and was told that maybe I shouldn’t run for the bus, if it makes me collapse.

I was so angry with this, that I finally asked “Well, could you at least do an ECG?”

Which they did.

It came back weird, but not “weird enough” for them to do anything.

So they sent me home saying “see your regular Dr in the morning”.

Totally useless.

They did however manage to point out that I probably shouldn’t be “driving myself home” in the car.

YAY doctors. YAY hospitals.


#77

Man, I know EXACTLY what you mean. People might find this ridiculous, but when I decided to change careers to be a vet, one of the reasons I did it is so that I’d never have to trust someone else to know how to treat my pets. Not disrespecting my colleagues, but I know how frustrating it can be to be at the mercy of someone else’s judgement, especially if you don’t know yet whether you can trust their judgement. Now that I am a vet and I know that it’s not entirely uncommon for me to disagree with the (well-meaning) judgement of my colleagues, I realize how valuable it is to be able to gather your own information and advocate for your own (or your own pets’) care.


(Mark Rhodes) #78

I have seen little of it here in the forum, but it will increase. Of that I have no doubt. In particular it will come from zealots who believe they are right. PERIOD. When I express keto to a new person I do not say this is how it is, rather I say we may not be correct- but we are not wrong! To me this adequately expresses that what we were taught is wrong and we are attempting a different way that is producing results. AND we may not be right, exactly but those results show we are not just plain wrong which CICO has proven itself to be. I mean 325 million Americans who do CICO cannot all be liars about their activity and food journals.

I rather think it is pretty obvious when a person is trolling. I & the wife have been keto for 20 months. I have seen the attacks in FB groups particularly The Jason Fung Fan Club Fasting Support in which I am a moderator. Delete. Delete. Delete. We do this not to discourage honest debate but to keep it a FAN CLUB. If you are on the page you already bought the bill of goods- debates are for other forums.

In my opinion the keto crowd has not done enough to answer the vegetarians who ALSO get results, at least for a couple of years. I think we would be well to address why this is, as a community. It would do well to show us as not dogmatic but truly searchers of truth.


(Consensus is Politics) #79

Wow… a 1 day old post with 78 replies. I’ll save all that for later. I just want to respond to the OP right now.

First, know I’m a skeptic. Just generic skeptic. I see subterfuge and scams everywhere. I dare say when I suspect it, I’m usually right.

With that in mind…

If I wanted to run my own Ketoway of life website, I’d want to profit from it. But I’m no genius in developing such things. So what I would do is find awesome professional sites like this one and plagiarize as much as possible. The stuff my members ask questions about that I can’t answer? Well I’ll come here myself and ask! The problem with that is obvious. You already gave examples. When a question is pressed for troubleshooting purposes (ahem, professional treoubleshooter here btw) you end up on a rabbit trail the disintegrates very quickly and vanished into the interwebs :roll_eyes:.

My gut feeling is a good number of the folks you are concerned about are indeed this. They ask “stupid” questions here so the can look smart on their own site. Not saying any question is stupid, per se, but you know what I mean. :cowboy_hat_face:


(Ron) #80

I do know what you mean and your thoughts mirror mine quite well. Thanks for the response. It eases my thoughts of delusion and paranoia I was entertaining.:crazy_face::grin: