Activism in reverse?

[Nebulous]

In an effort do discredit keto as fuel to recruit more to your vegan lifestyle.

Who cares if other people copy my diet or not? How does that benefit me?

[mtncntrykid]

Who cares if other people copy my diet or not? How does that benefit me?

OK for you but many people need some form of validation to support that they have made the right decision. Thus the definition of trolling.
I totally agree with you but that doesn’t mean that others do.

[mtncntrykid]

Good view and the reason for starting this thread, input from others.

[Kaiden]

Since we are talking about people potentially hostile to keto and wanting to vilify us, let me explain why many of us don’t trust doctors.

[Callisto]

That is excellent, thank you for posting it. Trust me, I’ve had these experiences plenty myself with doctors, and I get it.

[sugar-addict]

I’d like to post this example of a POSITIVE situation where someone is experiencing joint pain due to starting keto and asking about it and getting a response from someone who has experienced something similar.

In the first 4 weeks of keto, I had weird joint issues too. Not as bad as the person describing it in this thread, but very noticable and very weird. I was walking weirdly and it was definitely due to keto and I’d never experienced anything like it before.

In my case it was mild-ish and only slightly uncomfortable and I figured maybe there’s some kind of body-recomposition going on re my joints too. It resolved after about a month.

Bad knee pain since ketosis

Ketones compete with uric acid for excretion, so yes, both low-carbing and fasting can elevate UA. The “official” position on this in the keto community is that it resolves after several weeks, but that assertion is based on a single study done on highly trained athletes. For the rest of us, it can take much, much longer. For my husband, his uric acid never went down, and he continues to take medication (allopurinol) for it. Mine took 10 months to go down, and it’s still a little elevated. Taki…

I think it’s essential that in a forum like this, such questions can be asked freely and openly.

EVEN if it had turned out that the joint pain was not due to keto (tho in this case it was).

Also, this is another thread I would like to share in this context - again a POSITIVE example.

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/hard-lumps-in-lower-legs-shrinking/46645

Here, someone is sharing a very unexpected result re keto - just like when ppl post about their skin tags disappearing etc.

Given that there are unusual/ unexpected/ strange benefits to keto, naturally we must also expect people to have unusual/ unexpected/ strange adverse reactions to keto.

So if ppl are experiencing “weird” physical phenomena when they start keto, I think ppl should be far more respectful than just saying it must be rubbish.

Often there are things we just don’t KNOW or UNDERSTAND.

We don’t know exactly why keto reduces tissue lumps and skin tags.

And we don’t know why keto produces weird negative results too, often enough.

Some of the negative effects go away over time, as the body adjusts.

But some negative effects may also not go away, or be quite serious in nature.

To have an attitude that everyone on this forum must treat keto as some kind of miracle cure and if they question it or have “weird” physical reactions, that they get “flagged” as potential trolls seems incredibly narrow-minded to me.

If something is strong (and keto is strong) then it can easily bear criticism and questioning and does not need to fear it, because the proof will speak for itself.

Over-reacting to critical comments about keto, is actually discrediting keto more than it is doing it a service.

When I first joined the forum, I saw quite a few of the “hidden” posts that had been “flagged” by forum members and when I clicked on them, they were totally non-offensive posts, they were just people raising medical concerns they were experiencing in their first weeks of keto.

I was quite horrified when I saw those posts being flagged/ hidden.

(They came up when I was using the search function for the same weird symptoms I was experiencing)

I remember thinking “Ohhhhh crap… I thought this forum was cool… But if anyone voicing concerns/ criticisms gets flagged and gets their posts “hidden” then this is some spooky censorship and propaganda going on…”

Over time, I’ve seen enough honest debate here to know that this is not really the case.

But I also do see alot of hyper “pro pro pro pro keto” stuff going on, like it’s some weird holy thing and if someone says something negative about their experience, then it’s blasphemy.

[marklifestyle]

The difference is that the “look smart question” involves follow up questions that further ask for explanation into the process, the other seems to confront with “well how about”…one seems questioning the other seems confrontational.

[Callisto]

Excellent points! I also recently read an old thread about newbie posts where someone pointed out that one of the Getting Started tutorials encourages people to post a new thread as part of the tutorial. I haven’t gone through that tutorial myself, but I can see how someone new to keto and being encouraged to make a post would want to make it about any challenges they are facing so far. The tone of the post can be key in how people respond to it, for sure. A person’s tone can be so hard to assess, but sometimes it’s obvious. I vote the ones in the gray zone be excused.

[Noapples4u]

Late to the party on this topic! These types of posts cause me a lot of problems lol. As a nurse I want to jump in and fix things, especially when people are posting what could be fairly serious health issues. However, I’ve gradually learned(kind of a slow learner) that, when pressed for more details, major and sudden health issues often turn out to be normal variations or minor issues, and that’s why their doctor or whoever isn’t paying any attention to it.

I have lots of people in my “real life” that do this to me too, a blood test varies by a tenth of a degree from one time to the next and they’re all upset looking for its significance, even when it’s still in the normal range. Not that there can’t be a looming issue, but most of the time it’s just normal variance.

I’m trying hard not to jump onto these posts, because I know they could get me into trouble professionally. It’s just so hard when you’re a natural enabler lol. Probably why I have so many people like this in my real life!

[sugar-addict]

Yeah, “medical drama” can certainly be a thing in and of itself!

[PaulL]

My mother, a psych nurse herself, used to say that a successful nurse needed to be a bit codependent—but not too codependent, lol!

[sugar-addict]

My mother, a psych nurse herself, used to say that a successful nurse needed to be a bit codependent—but not too codependent, lol!

Yesssssss

Same for my job. But it’s a fiiiiiiine line

[sugar-addict]

Your point about tone is absolutely true.

Myself, I do remember feeling really exasperated when I was having massive electrolyte issues to the point of passing out.

As we all remember, the change to a keto WOE is intense at first - so many changes, so much readjustment - both the brain and body are working overtime to deal with all the changes.

The change in foods can be difficult at first - getting it right, finding things that are tasty - and lots of hiccups and trial and error.

Add to that the keto flu which isn’t very pleasant plus the huge learning curve of “what am I doing?” and “am I doing this righ?” and “have I missed something?”

Add to this that many have gone through gruelling CICO / calorie restriction diets and are probably on tenter hooks and pretty edgy / emotional about “will this latest diet finally work/ help?”…

If you get major medical issues (intense gout-ish joint pain, electrolyte issues with tachycardia and nearly passing out) you’re at a point where you just want to YELL and are totally fed up.

You thought you were doing something GOOD for your health, have put in a massive effort, have grit your teeth through keto flu and then a pretty big medical setback that is obviously linked to keto hits you.

The disappointment and frustration at that point is gonna make it quite hard to get your “tone” right.

And if you’ve not been posting up until that point - just “reading” the forum while things were going smoothly, then your fist post is gonna be full of “trouble and complaints”.

But I just don’t see that correlating with an army of undercover vegans trying to undermine keto by creating fake forum accounts and claiming bizarre symptoms…

[marklifestyle]

You thought you were doing something GOOD for your health, have put in a massive effort, have grit your teeth through keto flu and then a pretty big medical setback that is obviously linked to keto hits you

OMG YES! Some of these issues that crop up were actually masked by our diets. The symptoms often are our bodies rectifying the situation and getting better! It is just we had so many other issues this “new” one went unnoticed!

The absolute greatest thing I have learned with 2KD is KCKO!! Keep calm, keto on AND we will figure this out as we learn more!

[OldDoug]

I just saw a thread where someone is complaining about how difficult it is to eat enough fat—all the keto foods contain too much protein. I hope I contained my exasperation in my response, but tell me—do you believe this to be honest ignorance or a trolling post? Are young people that ignorant about the contents of food? I suppose they could well be . . . .

Paul, this is such an interesting thread. We all have different ranges of behavior, tone, verbiage, etc. that will exasperate us, make us think a given person is trolling, etc.

While I feel this forum has a very low rate of trolling, sometimes I do think, “Well, that was a dumb question…” One gets rather steeped in the lore of keto after a while, and perhaps we start taking it for granted after a while?

[PaulL]

Good point! I do try to remember it, but . . . oh, well!

(Though I hate to admit it, I’m only human after all. Don’t tell anyone!)

Some of these issues that crop up were actually masked by our diets

Another good point that I’ll try to keep in mind. Thanks, Mark.

[marklifestyle]

Did I say I learned that? OOPS. I meant the greatest thing I AM STILL learning.

[marklifestyle]

Oh my. I am naturally very sardonic and droll, using sarcasm as a lever in my day to day interactions. I have learned my normal communication does not translate well on the internet until people REALLY get to know me. I think it’s because so much of my language is facial and body posture. I try really hard to be clear and concise on the forum and FB.
And you are correct Doug. I might interpret something as conflict when it really is confusion and frustration. I do get soooo frustrated by questions easily answered with the SEARCH function or at least linking to a conversation that didn’t quite address the particular question. To me that suggests the person DID do some basic effort and research.

[PaulL]

using sarcasm as a lever in my day to day interactions.

Well, isn’t that nice?

(Sorry, I can never resist.)

[mtncntrykid]

This was my thinking when starting this thread in the form of a question of opinion and not direction.
I also have focused on tone and calmer demeanor the last couple months as I felt myself getting a little more critical than intended.