About me/ grocery suggestions


(Diane) #21

I agree, you sound like you’re doing very well!


(Sheri Knauer) #22

Yes. That was the impression I had when answering a similar question in another thread. The addition of 4 eggs with heavy cream, cheese, and bacon. Makes a big difference.

Nobody starts out keto perfect. You have a basic set of rules, keep carbs to 20g or less, moderate protein, high fat, then you gradually tweak it and make small changes (as you learn more) so it is something that works for you, you enjoy eating that way, and is getting you the results you are hoping for.


(Tyler) #23

Yeah I feel pretty dumb for not including that now lol Sorry, guys! I gotta say I am really enjoying the community so far. You guys are all very helpful and kind.


(Sheri Knauer) #24

Don’t sweat it. We all started out at one time. We’re here to help and support everyone in their keto journey. :grinning:


(Full Metal KETO AF) #25

I am not going to argue with you about this or start a debate here, I just want to say that since joining this forum I have found this to be the most controversial subject about keto in the forum. There’s a division between us who eat veggies and the carnivore style. Personally I think that vegetables provide much nutrition that’s lacking in a pure flesh&fat diet. Vitamins and many trace minerals for instance. Heard of scurvy? That’s what happens you have NO vitamin C. There are many diseases caused by vitamin/ mineral deficiency. Sure, you can get that stuff from a pill. But for me eating keto is an intelligent decision to not eat carbs and sugar, processed industrially produced food and drugs as much as possible. If you’ll excuse the term, eating God’s Food. In other words eating what comes from nature as much as I can.

I don’t believe humans were ever meant biologically to eat only flesh. First off we don’t have carnivore type teeth. We have omnivore type of teeth meant for grinding foods, not ripping and tearing off chunks of flesh and skin like cats, dogs, and other carnivores. We also have a much longer digestive tract than carnivorous animals to break down and absorb nutrients from plant materials. I know that you’re eating veggies some because of your posts so I am not pointing my finger at you saying no.

I just think going full carnivore except maybe cycling between periods of veggies and not, is not a healthy thing in the long run and not a natural way for humans to eat. I know many carnivores here say that fibre is harmful and inflammatory but I think they are in the extreme minority with this concept. I think maybe that many who choose this path were probably meat and potatoes folks who never liked veggies anyway, so what’s left for them…,meat. :cowboy_hat_face:


(Diane) #26

The guidelines which suggest the minimum amounts of micronutrients to maintain health were never studied in humans eating a ketogenic or carnivore diet. They are not accurate for those populations. People who are not eating a carbohydrate heavy diet do not necessarily need to consume as much vitamin c (or other micronutrients) to prevent scurvy, etc.

That said, though I may not NEED to eat veggies to maintain health, I ENJOY eating veggies and they add to the satisfaction and maintainability of a ketogenic way of life… for me.


#27

Humans can actually extract more nutrients from meat and organs of animals. Not only are they more nutrient dense, they are more bioavailable.

That’s not to say that nothing is obtained from vegetables, but people can meet their nutrient needs through animal products. Many people cannot digest plants in order to get the nutrients.

The below is from Chris Kresser, on beef liver.
https://chriskresser.com/natures-most-potent-superfood/


(Full Metal KETO AF) #28

On one hand you’re saying that guidelines for micronutrients have not been studied concerning keto/carnivore diet, and you followed up saying that those nutrients are not necessary if you’re not eating carbs and are on a keto diet? Is there studies or not? Rather confusing. Mariners from the past when long sea travel was a necessity to go to other continents lived off of salt pork, fish when they could get it and probably some kind of hard tack whole grain bread. When the fresh fruits and veggies ran out some people got ill. That’s why they started to carry limes on long voyages and why the English were sometimes referred to as limeys. As I said this is the biggest controversy in keto, some experts claim veggies are very important and others say not. I will go with my instincts on this and eat my vegetables. Not to say that I wouldn’t try carnivore for a period, but not as a permanent WOE. YMMV. :cowboy_hat_face:


(Diane) #29

Ok. I was trying to say that the micronutrient guidelines were not based on studies in ketogenic or carnivore populations and so are not NECESSARILY accurate for those populations. I should have been more careful in my wording.

On the other hand (as an example), it has been suggested that blood glucose is competitive for the some of the same receptors as vitamin c, which means you need to have a lot more vitamin c in your system to make sure enough gets absorbed if one is eating a high carb diet. This suggests that if your blood sugar is low, other sources of vitamin c (not fruit or veggie based) might be adequate (through improved absorption) to maintain optimal health.

There are also more than a few people who have been eating a carnivore diet for more than a decade (admittedly self-reported, but credible to me) who do not suffer from scurvy. There are also some studies in documented populations (the Inuit) who did not have access to (during winter) or simply did not eat fruits and veggies (Masai warriors who ate just meat, blood and milk), who do not show evidence of deficiency diseases like scurvy or rickets.

When it comes to the sailors who got scurvy, I don’t know if their diets prior to their voyages were documented. Were they eating well before their voyages? Were their diets already deficient before setting sail? Were they carb heavy? I don’t think we know all the factors that contributed to their health prior to a diet that was restricted during the sea voyages. Just questions that occur to me.

That said, I love my veggies and usually eat some berries every week (if not every day). To each his own.


#30

In all of Carnivore, which is admittedly in its infancy, I’ve heard of one documented case of scurvy, and pretty much everyone was in agreement that the reason he got it was that he half-assed it. Considering there is no such thing as an essential carb, there’s nothing veggies provide us that animal products can’t. The fact that I can’t eat any raw veggies due to OAS tells me something about my genetics doesn’t require them.


(Katie) #31

I like chicken breasts, but also choose nutritious meats: whole eggs, red meats, organ meats, fatty fish (salmon, sardines), clams. These meats are filled with micronutrients that are beneficial; chicken breasts have little. If sardines are off-putting, lather them in deli mustard.

I like to have different spice blends to change things up. Have a Mexican blend, Italian spices, Asian-y spices, etc. If you by a blend pre-made, make sure to read the label that there are not any ingredients that you do not think are suitable for your eating plan.


(Tiffani Dutridge) #32

I am only 6 weeks in so by no means do I have it all together yet. I can, however comment on a possible reason for your lack of hunger/appetite. My position at my last job was a swing shift position with 2 week rotations. On my 2 weeks of 3rds, by about the 2nd or 3rd night in, my appetite and hunger dropped off completely. I think working overnight shifts just screws up your circadian rhythm so much that you’re legitimately not hungry. I would force myself to eat dinner with my family because I thought that’s what I should do. Now I know better, but I don’t work shift work anymore. :grinning:


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #33

The anthropologist and Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson returned to New York in 1927 after several years living among the Eskimo of Canada on an all-meat diet. No one believed that he, or the Eskimos, could possibly live on such a diet, and so he and a colleague, Karsten Andersen, agreed to a one-year experiment to prove whether people could survive. The pair were locked in a ward at Bellevue Hospital for the first few months, to make sure they weren’t cheating. The researchers supervising the experiment considered it a “failure,” because the two men never developed scurvy. It turns out that the Inuit never developed scurvy, or any of the chronic degenerative diseases that plague us today, until they started eating a “modern,” Westernized, high-carbohydrate diet.

Today we know the reason: β-hydroxybutyrate, one of the ketone bodies, is not only a good source of energy, it is also a powerful hormone. In its hormonal capacity, one of the things it does is to reactivate the body’s natural defenses against reactive oxygen species (normal by-products of metabolism), thus eliminating the need for Vitamin C. (The actual mechanism is that a high insulin level activates certain genes that inhibit the body’s defenses against oxidative stress, and β-hydroxybutyrate shuts off those genes, allowing the defenses to work again, thus eliminating the need for exogenous anti-oxidants.)

As far as we know, there is no need for carbohydrate in the human diet. The teaspoon or so of glucose needed to be circulating in the human bloodstream can easily be provided by the liver, out of the protein and fat we eat. There is no known carbohydrate-deficiency disease, and if you can show the existence of one, you will make medical history (there are, of course, diseases that result from a deficiency of protein, or of certain fatty acids).

Vegetables can certainly be tasty, but they are by no means essential to the diet.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #34

I didn’t know that, but it makes some obvious sense with the Inuit reference. Thanks for that :cowboy_hat_face:

Have you done a full carnivore diet @PaulL ?


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #35

Good heavens, no! I love cauliflower and cheese too much to give it up. To say nothing of broccoli. And salad greens make a great vehicle for blue cheese dressing. And when my niece brings home some Five Guys fries, I have to pretend they are crack cocaine, and even then I usually end up giving in and having one or four.

But I have to admit that it pays me to keep my carb intake as low as I can, because otherwise I will binge on it, and I don’t like how I feel when i get too much, even if it was only broccoli. The first time I made cauliflower and cheese was early in keto, and I ate the whole cauliflower at that one meal—much more than 20 g, even after subtracting the fiber—till then, I thought I only had to worry about sugar, lol!


(Running from stupidity) #36

LOL. CICO, DUDE!


(Diane) #37

+10000000000


#38

I see your CICO and raise you Dr. Bergermeister.


(Running from stupidity) #39

Nah, not even close. Cleveland Browns v <insertgoodteamhere>


(Full Metal KETO AF) #40

But I think most of us view the CICO concept relatively the same other than maybe people new to the keto WOE.

But the carnivore vs omnivore is kind of a clear division between two schools of thought. With many experts claiming veggies are necessary for healthy keto eating and others claiming that veggies are bad or not needed with their fiber and unnecessary carbs, vitamins and minerals.

@kandescent Yes, I saw the chart you posted showing that beef liver has everything that veggies have but more. From looking at the “What did you keto today” thread I rarely see liver on anyone’s plates. I don’t think that many of us eat organ meats regularly.

However I have plans to try it for a month or so to see how I feel at some point. And I will eat beef liver. :cowboy_hat_face: thanks for that post @kandescent I love that the information flow on this forum can be so fast, research can be very time consuming as an individual.