4oz of Protein at a time

[juice]

I have been trying to find where this information comes from, possibly just an urban myth?

I was going to be a smartarse and say “It’s probably just another vegan story” then realised that might not be best on this thread

[Caroline_Ennis]

nobody is more critical of the vegan diet then those of us who have suffered through it! It very well may be that I heard it from one of the vegan docs, who i watch now for pure entertainment. the healthiest diet on the planet, lol. i got sick and bloated and hungry all the time, not fun.

i love just having a normal appetite and not wanting to eat all the time, certainly frees up a lot of time and i have a lot more energy! i’m thankful the vegan thing was short lived for me, some people are seriously damaged from it and they don’t think coherently so they just keep thinking they need to detox lol.

[islandlight]

This is anecdotal only. I offer it for what it’s worth.

I used to eat huge amounts of protein, several times a day. This was when I was on Atkins and also when I was eating the Standard American Diet. In fact I was raised on huge meals–a typical supper would include 3 pork chops or the equivalent, even when I was little.

A couple of years ago (pre-keto) I was doing some research and found I needed only 70 grams of protein per day. I couldn’t believe how small an amount that was in terms of food! Since starting keto, I’ve been sticking to this number, but I spread it over 3 meals a day, or sometimes 3 meals and a snack.

Now I’m 65 and healthy (except for overweight and knee problems), and as far as I know my kidneys are fine. So I survived the lifelong protein overload somehow.

[atomicspacebunny]

I have heard in many places that you cannot absorb any more than 4oz of protein at a time and anything over this is just taxing your kidneys.

How Much Protein Is Too Much Protein on a Ketogenic Diet

Take .8 x body weight divide by 3 (meals). This will give you how much protein you DON’T WANT to exceed.

8 ounces of chicken - 62 grams
8 ounces of steak - 52 grams
8 ounces of fish 45 grams

But its not an exact science, so also see if you feel on higher and lower amounts of protein. Find your sweet spot.

Related:

1. How Much PROTEIN Do We Really Need? MUST WATCH!

2. How Many Grams of Protein on a Keto & Intermittent Fasting Plan?

3. Why We ONLY Need a Moderate Amount of Protein on a Keto and Intermittent

4. 9 Factors You Need to Know About Protein

5. Problems with High Protein Diet

[SlowBurnMary]

This is based in some research about max protein synthesis related to 20-30 grams per sitting - which makes sense to me based on the potassium/sodium levels issues that many people have - mentioned by Phinney & Volek in their book for non-athletes. However, in a well-formulated LCHF/keto diet, we should be generously salting food and taking in extra sodium via salted water, snacking on salt, and/or bouillon cubes, etc. And the sodium levels increase capacity for protein synthesis!

But there are some merits to limiting protein per meal - particularly for midlife folks, esp midlife females - in terms of digestive load (which also informed the ancient practice of female fasting before and during first day of menses for zero cramping) and extent of insulin surge (8-10 oz of protein is a much bigger spike than 4oz etc). IF with lower end of protein (30-40gr) with sufficient sodium/potassium levels results in no harm to lean body mass according to Phinney & Volek.

It depends also on your phase of metabolic healing and lean mass health. For someone recovering from carb-malnourishment from previous years things like COQ10, EFAs, carnitine, magnesium, b12, can really enhance lean mass recovery (sure has done so to mine, but I limit protein per meal, so I try to only do OMAD a few days a week).

I do know however that 4oz applies to another topic: water. Apparently the kidneys can only process 4oz at a time - and when we chug more than that at one time, it stresses the kidneys which bypass it and it goes straight to the bladder. However, I don’t think that applies as much to salted water.

[Baytowvin]

nonsense

I think there might be something to it. I haven’t been able to get more than 4oz of meat in a single bite… that’s what they meant by 4oz at a time right???

When I sit down with a 20oz ribeye, it’s at least 20 bites.

[hedleylo]

4 oz of protein is only 1.6 lbs of 73/27 ground beef.

[LeCheffre]

4oz of Meat as a serving x 3 a day is nonsense pushed by the USDA and the 7th Day Adventist agenda that wants you to eat more grain and be a docile, boring person, and eat less meat.

Also, ignore “Dr.” Berg of the 8-10 servings of leafy greens a day. Once you throw that out as a well formulated keto/LCHF diet, your credibility on protein intake is shot.

Eat protein to satiety. It is self limiting for most folks. If you are fasted or fat burning, the insulin rise is matched/exceeded by a glucagon rise per the lab of Ben Bikman, PhD. .8/lbs of bodyweight, per the Eades in Protein Power would be an appropriate minimum for a highly active person or a moderately active, over 40% overweight person. But the Eades also set all their numbers (from .5 to 1g/lbs) as floors, not targets. Daily and per meal minimums with no ceiling due to the satiation effect.

[EssentialNutritionCh]

First it is important to notice the difference between protein food and protein. Protein food is about 1/4 protein. A 4 ounce chicken breast has 1 ounce of protein. If I eat 4 ounces at breakfast (2 eggs with 4 bacon slices), 4 ounces at lunch (a chef salad), and an 8 ounce steak with low carb vegetables for dinner, I would complete 16 ounces (1 pound) of protein food which contains 4 ounces of protein (120 grams) which is in the upper limit of my window of 1.0 to 1.5 grams per kilogram of lean body weight. Since I skip 1 or 2 meals, I am usually at around 60 to 90 grams per day (2 to 3 ounces). The important question is not how much you can absorb but how much you should eat. Dr. Rosedale and Dr. Fung say to eat as little as you can get away without hunger. Most of the calories should come from fat, not protein, and not carbohydrate.

[juice]

4 ounces of protein (120 grams)

Just noting that 4oz is 113g. Might not matter to some, might matter to others. (Not to me, I’ll eat protein endlessly.)

[Happyheart]

I don’t know how much protein I eat but I assure you I eat more than 4oz of meat or whatever at a meal. I don’t gorge myself but eat until I’m full. Yesterday I ate a delicious ribeye. It was huge. I didn’t eat it all, though I could have, but I wanted some for lunch today.
I’m over 50 and I don’t want to lose muscle mass. I don’t wish to feel hungry, and I know meat is nutritious.
I have to say I’m so glad I don’t have to spend so much effort on counting macros. I realise some people love that but I would have probably quit by now if I had to.
Eat low carbs, know how many are in the foods your eating, keep it around 20 grams a day or less. Eat to satiety with the protein and fats. Choose healthy real foods. See how that goes for you.
My kidneys are fine.
Edited because I use my phone and you know…

[MarkGossage]

Watch this… you might be surprised…

[Callisto]

i am a veterinarian

So am I, Caroline! So great to see another veterinarian on the forums! Let’s be friends!

the low carb docs are the only ones who have reasonable explanations for just about everything

Right? It’s beyond me how anybody with an advanced education in physiology and biochem could not feel this way. And yet…

[Caroline_Ennis]

thanks for all the great replies! yes 4oz of protein and 4oz of meat are much different. I think what I had heard was 4oz of meat (size of your fist). Which is kinda silly, because that may be ok for me at 120#, but not enough for a 200# 18 year old guy! I do track my macro’s right now, I’m sure i won’t do it forever, but since i’m new to this and i’m trying to figure it out I have to do it for now. and i kinda like it…ocd. i do think that is vegan/plant based propaganda, or at least dietary guidelines b.s. i just wondered if maybe there was some science to back it up. which would be an anomaly!

I have watched a lot of Bikman’s videos, but I haven’t seen that one, so I’ll watch that next. i really like him and ted naiman is another of my favorites.

thanks for that info mary. as a 50 year old female, i really think my protein requirement is on the lower end as you suggested. i never go over the .8x bodyweight number, i’m usually in the 50-80g. that is very interesting about the water. i’ve never been a big water drinker. yuck. i have noticed that when i drink water it does just go right through me. i guess that’s the lack of salt. i do put pink salt in my water now or pellegrino with flavored stevia for a treat. and i don’t drink much of that. i have recently started drinking 2 cups of bone broth a day, and i think that is good stuff.

To Callisto: i’m in central/upstate NY, where do you practice? I went to UGA and graduated in 2000. have you seen the ketopet sanctuary? They are taking in cancer dogs from shelter and trying ketogenic diet + some allopathic/standard of care treatments. So far they have had some impressive results. It’s interesting how many of the pets we see everyday have our same diseases, cancer, diabetes, fatty liver, arthritis, autoimmune, obesity. etc etc. and then I look at all the carbs that are in even the best super premium foods (for animals who are even less adapted to carbs then we are). You’ve got purina adding MCT oil to some foods (f"for aging brains") but keeping the carbs high and charging like double for it. What are you doing diet wise for dogs/cats? It seems to be at the core of all diseases and yet rarely addressed or even acknowledged. just like in human medicine. I’ve read that dogs and cats don’t produce ketones like we do, possibly not as well adapted to periods of starvation? one food preference study showed that when given a choice as to what to eat, dogs consistently choose a 30% protein, 60-70% fat, almost no carbs. i’ll have to try to find the reference for that one. i think i heard it on a podcast. though it would be dangerous to take a dog off the commercial kibble and try that, they probably would get pancreatitis or a lot of diarrhea. i’m going to be experimenting on my own crew of misfits and see what i find. the FDA announcement on grain free food was also interesting. peas. lentils, potatoes, legumes, chick peas, causing heart disease in dogs, hmmm maybe there is something to that lectin thing, and dogs really shouldn’t be eating plants.

thanks again for all the replies, this is a great forum and i’ve learned so much from all of you!
Caroline

[Callisto]

It was someone on the forum here that pointed me to the keto dog sanctuary, it’s very interesting and I think we’ll probably all learn a lot from what they are doing.

And I’ll have to PM you a little later. I’d probably get in trouble for about 80% of what I’d like to say about pet nutrition. But I’ve already said plenty on a few other threads (I’ll link a couple below), it’s remarkably difficult for me to stay quiet on the topic. If you read these other threads, you’ll sense my frustration, but please know my intention wasn’t to dish on our profession, I love my colleagues and I’ve worked with plenty who think critically about nutrition. (Just had a conversation yesterday with my fellow associate about how in our practice we almost never see diabetes or pancreatitis anymore, probably because of all the “bougie foods” - her term, LOL- that so many of our clients feed.) I just think it’s the same as the human medical world, and in both cases I am frustrated by the lack of independent thinking about the general guidelines and whether they make any sense. Totally feel free to disagree with anything I say though, I’m not sensitive at all to that, and would welcome a good stimulating conversation on these topics with a fellow vet who cares about nutrition.

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K9 diet?

I don’t actually know what category to put this under. I guess the first question is whether or not there’s someone who know’s a thing or two about veterinary dietary requirements. My dog has had a problem for a long time where her nose is really dry, rough, cracked and bleeds. Think your dry, callous, cracked heels. We’ve had her to the vet on multiple occasions and the advice has been to put ointment like aquaphor on the dog’s nose. It helps, a little. Not much. We are already feeding her …

[Baytowvin]

My little guy is on a pure meat diet and I’ve been reading up on it for my larger two dogs (I’ve been putting it off because I know it’s going to be speedy). It’s hysterical to read the raw/meat diet sites for dogs and realize that, other than being geared for protein the way we are geared for fat, they process food, and all the shit we’ve been feeding them the exact same way, and it can be fixed just as easily by feeding them what they’ve been wired to eat for hundreds of thousands of years.

[Callisto]

Yeah, the only reason I can afford to feed my dog the way I do is because I can order it wholesale, and even then it’s more expensive than even most premium brands. Thank goodness I only have one dog. Take a look at those threads though, especially the second one which is pretty much entirely about dog foods. I hope some of those links are helpful. If you can find a good affordable source of meat, there are base mix options so you can make your own food from it.

[brownfat]

What are you doing diet wise for dogs/cats? It seems to be at the core of all diseases and yet rarely addressed or even acknowledged.

Our dog mostly eats the same food my wife and I do. Lots of eggs and sometimes a little meat from our flock of free ranging hens. A lot of pastured meats - inexpensive cuts such as tongue, heart, tail, feet, liver, kidney, chuck, soup bones, cap fat, etc. mostly prepared sous vide. Homemade kefir and cheeses. Fish a couple times a week, mostly sardines with skin and bones. And vegetables, herbs and fruit from our garden - our dog eats less of these but does choose to eat some. And every few months she catches a rabbit and we cook those up for her too. It is working fabulously for her, at 8 years old she is lean, muscular and a shockingly fast sprinter. Everyone, including our vet, asks if she has a special exercise regimen but typically she gets a daily walk to a park where we let her do as she pleases off leash for a few minutes. My previous dogs fed premium commercial pet foods all had health issues by her age and most died of cancer a year or two shy of the normal full lifespan for their breeds.

[PaulL]

I have heard in many places that you cannot absorb any more than 4oz of protein at a time a

Four ounces of protein is 113.64 g, or roughly the amount of protein contained in a 16-ounce steak. I wouldn’t be totally surprised to learn that the body can’t assimilate more than a pound of steak at a time, but I’ve never heard that before, and I too would like to know where that idea comes from.

Nevertheless, that amount of protein daily would be high for most people. We generally recommend eating in the neighborhood of 1.0-1.5 g/kg of lean body mass/day, so that amount of protein would equate to 75.76-113.64 kg of LBM. Assuming 30% body fat would imply a total weight somewhere between 108.23 kg and 162.34 kg, or 238 and 357 lb.

Still, the numbers aren’t wildly out of range.

[hedleylo]

OR, as I said previously. About 1.6 lbs 73/27 ground beef. Are carnivores even eating this much in one sitting and not feeling sick?