15 day fast at lower BF range

(Tim W) #1

Hello everyone!

I love this board! I wish I had found it a year ago!

Quick background, 42 yr male, 5’11" 160ish pounds. (Currently at 157 on this fast, my weight bounces up and down based on the amount of craft beer I consume…) My current waist is 32", neck is 14". From the visual guides I’d estimate my BF at 10%. My accu-measure single point caliper is 3 to 4mm, indicating 6-9%, I don’t think I’m as low as 6 due to visual indications. I’m not ripped but I am toned. I run 20-45 miles a week and lift 3 days a week and have been doing this for years.

I started with IF last FEB (2016) and worked up to six days without issue, losing weight and gaining it back (usually through beer :frowning: ). Weight was not an issue, the fasts were to obtain the autophagy effects etc. We started keto (without tracking exact ratios but no carbs except veggies) Jan of 2017.

So, why do a 15 day fast?

  1. To prove to ourselves that we can (wife is going as well)
  2. To improve insulin response (we are both carb sensitive and have family histories to deal with)
  3. To induce autophagy and reduce chance of cancer/Alzheimer’s etc in the future
  4. For me, to hopefully reduce the number of/size of benign fatty lipomas
  5. For her, continued weight loss and reduced abdominal stores

On day 10 and so far, I’ve only had water, black coffee, lacroix, lite-salt/Himalayan salts (ketoaide) and salt sticks with a couple of saltstick fastchews once or twice. I’ve continued my workouts, running and lifting as “normal”.

This mornings readings (day 10):
Ketones: 7.8
Glucose: 75
Ketonix: .8??? (seems to be getting less and less reliable as blood ketones go up?)

Problems fasting this lean:
-I’m ALWAYS COLD! And, of course, we had a warm FEB followed by a COLD MAR! Damn you weather! However, I had these issues prior to the fast, even eating keto I’d start out cold and warm up later in the day when I started eating and often woke up in “meat sweats”.
-I’ve had lots of energy fluctuations and my daily “I need a nap at 1400” drops were even more pronounced. Day five was TOUGH for me, it was a real “I don’t know if I can do this” situation, it was very hit or miss, I only made it by telling myself “hold on a little longer” and surviving the day. Day nine was tough too, very similar to day five (it used to be I’d only feel this way on day 2/3 of a fast as I was “converting” in ketones). I don’t think I’d have these low energy states if I had a little more BF to play with.

My plan is to push on to the planned 15 day mark, adding bone broth if needed. I’m actually playing with Richards calcs and thinking about adding a little fat for protein sparing.

Following this, I won’t do fasts this long, I’ll do fat fasts or AF, something like that, maybe a five day here and there but nothing like this since I intend to keep BF around the 10-15% range.

Anyone have any experience with this? Pushing this long into a fast at lower body fat ranges? Thanks!

EDIT
I can’t post any more replies today :frowning:
I’ll reply to all as soon as possible.

EDIT
Thanks again to those who have replied. I still can’t post more replies for another couple of hours. What’s a guy to do with his time when he’s got his five hours of sleep but post replies on message boards? (can’t sleep more due to the ketosis…and the federal taxes are done…)

I am wondering/concerned about Richards protein-loss calculator. I was at 155.6 today, using his calculator with 156 at 10% body fat, it says I’ll consume 89g/day of protein and that protein consumption number only goes up if I lower the BF number (of course…) so I’m probably burning 80 to 95g/day of protein, that’s 380cal a day of protein yes?

Since I’m not consuming ANY protein, it has to come from muscle yes? Now, I’ve never thought about this but we think that it takes a calorie deficit of 3,500 cal to burn a pound of fat, is it the same for a pound of muscle? If yes, then, 3,500/380 = 9 days? I work on jet engines for a living so this math may be WAY off but I read that to expect to “lose” a pound of muscle over a 9 day period. What about the proteins released from fats though? Any idea of how much that might account for?

I’m reading Richard’s explanations on his calc a few more times but am I missing anything on this early run-through? I’m not the smartest guy in ANY room so any other points of view/QA looks at my thought process would be appreciated.

If I’m right, and I’ll lose “about” a pound of muscle in 9 days, then I’m not going to exercise any more during this fast (on day 11 of 15) and might supplement with bone broth (don’t want to stop the autophagy though) or heavy cream. I work out during a fast to get the HGH impact and try to minimize muscle lose, might be a sabotage thistime. I can always re-build the muscle (providing I keep the loss as low as possible) and plan to do a bulk phase in April/May anyway in order to win the pullup challenge on base so I expect full recovery of any lost muscle tissue but don’t want to extend my recovery time post fast… sorry for the long update/edit, keoto brain you know… (when you are wide awake, alert, and for me, very “writey/chatty” [I make up words all the time…])

#2

This is amazing! Good work!

I can not even imagine doing what you are doing. I wanted to try a fast while exercising for a few days, but I really don’t want to lose more than a few pounds I hope that some others comment their experiences because I am interested in this.

I know that with such low bodyfat, it is hard to fast while continuing to train.

(Jennifer) #3

Welcome - Sounds like you have all the info. Richard’s glucose calculations were fascinating. Just an FYI - broth (protein) will stop the autophagy, might want to just add fat if you want that to continue.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #4

In terms of the cold and energy fluctuations, you might want to have a look at this (though you may have already found it, given the reference to “Richard’s calcs”):

Your plan to do fat fasts is probably the right direction, as you likely do not have enough BF to support your basal metabolic rate. I’m around the same height as you, but around 20-25 lbs heavier, and I also struggle with fasting if I don’t supplement fat.

My last fast was water-only, and I think I went around 5 days. Wasn’t awful, but moving forward, I plan to stick with fat fasts when I fast.

(Tim W) #5

Thanks for the responses everyone.

I’ve been on the ropes today!

Day 11 has been another rough one.

Woke up after 5 hours of sleep, no issue there. I felt GREAT and didn’t take readings since I knew I was deep in ketosis and feeling great.

After some black coffee and relaxing with the wife, we got up to do house chores, still feeling great.

I was feeling so good, I decided to bang out a few pull ups and started doing 3 reps with 10-20 minutes in between.

We got ready to go do some running around so I took some more sodium and a few supplements. Upon getting up from the couch I stumbled several times due to being light headed, my wife said I clearly looked drunk, that was a doozy! I’ve had that symptom before but I’ll be honest, that about took me out.

I gathered myself and we pushed on to run some errands, I had to slow my wife down several times but I was able to keep moving and help her move a couple of boxes of printer paper. My mental clarity was 100% the entire time but, after doing some furniture shopping I had to stop every 30 mikes or so and rest.

For a couple of hours I was convinced I was done. I have a mouth feel that I don’t know that I’ve had before and idea of eating a whole brick of butter was the most appealing concept I’ve ever heard of. I told myself I’d take it an hour at a time and see how I felt upon getting home and relaxing.

An hour or so later and I’m feeling ok. I stand up slowly and will see how I feel in a bit, I have to pack for a work trip, getting the attic to get the luggage might prove interesting.

I’m on the road tomorrow and a little concerned.

I think about travel the same way ron-coleman does (very stoic by the way ron!). I’ll get there when I get there, delays don’t bother me and I’m the last guy on the plane/last guy to get off if I can help it. At this point though, I’m worried about lugging the bag to the check in point… something so simple yet not in this state. Starting monday, I have to be in peak mental shape (and I am) but have to be at work for 12-14 hours or so, should be fun.

We’ll see how the rest of the day goes before I supplement with something more than water/coffee/electrolytes.

EDIT
I know I’m overthinking this, that’s my tendency.

(Guardian of the bacon) #6

As to protein requirements during extended fasting…Autophagy should provide you with some of your daily protein requirements.

(Tim W) #7

That’s what I was thinking.

As I understand it, the body will break down the fat stores into composite materials, some of which will be proteins and amino acids, providing the various types of fuel required.

It’s funny, after writing my last update post, I got up, walked around the house a bit, packed for trip and feel GREAT again… More ups and downs on this fast than any in memory.

I do feel like the first time I did a 72 hour, I had a carb goo in my pocket the entire time… just in case… ohhhhh, innocent ignorance… Technically, I’m on day 12 (fast started at 2100) so ONLY four days to go on this one… oh boy.

(Guardian of the bacon) #8

Not only this but as you lose weight some of this weight is LBM which isn’t all muscle. Some of this LBM is excess skin, unneeded connective tissue, unneeded blood vessels, excess blood volume etc…all made up of proteins.

(Tim W) #9

Copy all, one of my goals was to reduce non-cancerous lipomas, i wonder how “low/far” I’ll have to go to get me.

Thanks for the conversation j!

(Guardian of the bacon) #10

I used to have a plethora of skin tags. Keto and fasting has virtually eliminated all of them.

(Tim W) #11

That makes sense. My wife had a co-worker tell her about her skin tags (while she drank a can of soda) and how irritating they were. My wife counseled her on the the fact that they were an indication of diabetes (something we didn’t know until starting this journey), the co-worker actually changed her diet, it was awesome!

(Tim W) #12

After a little jaunt across the country side I’m safely ensconced in my hotel room for a few days with day 12 coming to an end.

I do NOT know how I could feel so good today, after the rough ups and downs I’ve had. I was up early and quickly made it through the gates and to my destination with very little trouble. I slept deeply on the second flight and, other than some slight hunger at my normal Sunday feeding time (funny, the body seems to “remember” feeding times from individual days, even if different) I’ve felt really good today. Mental clarity has been high and energy has gone from moderate to high.

Sundays are my long run days and I REALLY wanted to go and crank out a few miles, I felt that good BUT, since I’ve seen severe dips the last couple of times I tried to do pull-ups, I thought it best to just take a walk for an hour. That didn’t really kill the nervous “I need to work out” energy I had but I felt it the safe thing to do.

I really have to figure out the cold hands thing. Upon waking this morning I had a 500MG multi-mag and some sea salt plus lite-salt in water. I was absolutely freezing for 5-6 hours after that with hands so cold I had on gloves in the airport. I’m going to keep tracking this to see if the variables are related or it’s something else.

Have a great Sunday everyone! Only 3 days to go for me!

#13

There can certainly be circulatory issues not related to fasting that would cause cold hands, but the first thing the body shuts down when there aren’t enough incoming calories is generating extra body heat in order to conserve energy.

This is normally a sign for me to either supplement with some dietary fat or end the fast or make sure the next fast starts after a significant feasting interval.

(Tim W) #14

BillJay,

I’ve definitely seen the thermogenic effects of food and I’m sure that it’s related to the fasting. I do have the same issue in the mornings even when eating keto. I normally don’t eat until 1500 everyday, so I’m checking to make sure it’s not something in my morning routine.

Might be that, even when eating, I’m not getting enough fat at my last meal to keep me “warm” through the next day. Problem is, the more fat I eat for dinner, the more often I wake up with the “meat sweats” in the middle of the night, burning off that extra fat. Might be time for fat laced coffee in the AM. Might try that next. Thank goodness summer is almost here…

(Tim W) #15

Day 13 comes close to an end.

Spent the day at work 12 hours of briefs and computer screens. I stood most of the day (thank goodness for standing desks!).

Mental clarity has been great, It’s actually working out great since my mind is sharp and I have my wits about me. Only my eyes got tired from staring at a screen for the 2nd part of the day.

Energy has been good and hunger only peaked during my normal afternoon eating time, falling off a few hours after that.

I’m relaxing now and really starting to feel like I can make it to thurs morning, which would be the start of day 16, when I’ll have breakfast. I’m going to have bacon bathed in butter, then wait a few hours to have a large salad and some more meat/fish/protein (whatever is being served that day). Dinner will be a grilled steak with fried eggs cooked in butter… holy crap I can’t wait…

(Tim W) #16

Day 15 has started.

Today, felt better than I had any right to. I woke up at 0400, after 5 hours of sleep and, against my previous decision went and did some light cardio/weights, i’ve been going stir-crazy and missing workouts and couldn’t resist. Fortunately, with the right sodium levels and supps, I’ve felt good/although tired all day. Mental clarity has been probably the best it’s every been in 10 years. I wasn’t hungry except for a few minutes here and there, though I have been fixated on what I’m eating Thurs.

I have to say, a year ago, I would have told you it was crazy to even consider this.

(Michelle) #17

Thanks for sharing your experience! Are you still just having black coffee, water and electrolytes ? I was wondering how long a lean person can sustain an extended fast.

I am trying extended fast this week, but I’m not as lean as you. I am relatively lean, and wondered how far I can go. My hands and feet are cold a lot. Last night, I felt like ice crystals were forming on my feet!! Ugh.

(Tim W) #18

You are welcome Michelle.

I am still going with those things, with a Lacroix once or twice a day (sugar/carb free of course, basically flavored sparkling water, it’s great with pill for supplements).

I actually feel like I could go a few more days. I’m at 153lbs today and I don’t think I’m in a muscle wasting zone yet, despite my fears from earlier (some rough days there, probably due to low electrolytes).

The cold hands are the worst! Next time I do something like this, I’ll have butter or MCT oil/similar in the morning to prevent that.

Take care and good luck! How long do you plan to go?

(John) #19

Awesome, where are you at btw, by the image you are probably very nearby to me

(Michelle) #20

I tried and stopped at close to 67 hours. My hands and feet were so cold, my head hurt and I was kinda miserable. It was my longest fast, so still happy about that.

I will def incorporate MCT when I go for extended again.

Thank you!! You did amazing!!