Zero Carb Carnivore - what if blood glucose is constantly high?

[FrankoBear]

Carnivore and me go out together on occasion, but it seems we are not a good match.

On keto I can generate fasting ketones at about 0.5 mmol/l as I have been low carb for over 5 years. I like the feeling of nutritional ketosis. My fasting blood glucose is regularly less than 100mg/dl in the morning.

So I have a go at carnivore eating and dropping cheese and cream from the food list. Each time I drop out of ketosis and my fasting blood glucose runs along at about 120mg/dl. To me that would be a worry long term.

I like the beef meat and eggs on the carnivore WOE. I no longer eat poultry and only eat pork as bacon with eggs. While carnivore, I pretty much stick with beef. It is a high satiety WOE. (Do you guys remember that film with Grace Kelly?)

Every time I try deliberate (prefer that word rather than strict) carnivore, I get oxalate dumping symptoms at between day 10 and 14. On one out of 4 carnivore run-throughs, those symptoms put me in hospital (heart symptoms). Currently the emergency department at the local hospital is not a bucket list destination.

Has anyone else had similar adventures swapping between keto and carnivore?

[David_Stilley]

I haven’t had any severe oxalate dumping symptoms ever. I guess I kind of went low oxalate while I ate keto for almost a year before I tried carnivore I had completely cut two vegetables that I loved, spinach and chard. I was eating cruciferous vegetables and above ground nightshades and zucchini pretty much exclusively.

I have read many accounts of carnivore raising BG and dropping in and out of ketosis a lot. I have heard many claims from hard core carnivores that none of that matters on a carnivore diet. I have never tested anything since I started keto so I don’t know for myself personally. I too, like yourself am a bit skeptical of how this is going to be a good thing in the long run.

As of now I’m back on my regular KETO WOE, making fermented vegetables and not eating a lot of plants. I’m feeling good and enjoying my food a bit more as some plants makes a meat based diet way more interesting in my opinion and I don’t believe the amount of plant material I consume is causing me any issues at all.

[ctviggen]

I haven’t gone completely carnivore. I’m carnivore-ish, eating some selected plants. Usually, pickled or cooked really well plants. Sometimes raw (tomatoes, onions, some lettuce, but only every once in a while). Also, some chocolate.

I find some plants, like hot green/red peppers, cabbage, raw sauerkraut cause me issues. Meanwhile, if I cook them well, they seem not to cause the same issues.

Have you tried backing off of whatever is giving you oxalates while still eating keto, then going back to carnivore?

What are your reasons for trying carnivore?

I personally don’t think that higher morning blood sugar is a bad thing on a carnivore diet. But with anything like this, it’s impossible to tell. There are no long term studies.

[atomicspacebunny]

So I have a go at carnivore eating and dropping cheese and cream from the food list. Each time I drop out of ketosis and my fasting blood glucose runs along at about 120mg/dl . To me that would be a worry long term.

You should eat variety of meats or you could end up with a fatty liver especially eggs?

If your not eating grass fed meat your eating processed food?

#2: GRASS - FED BEEF HELPS SUPPORT HEALTHY BLOOD SUGAR LEVELS:

Insulin sensitivity helps promote healthy blood sugar levels [][]. Consuming grass - fed beef while following a ketogenic lifestyle can improve blood glucose levels if you’re insulin resistant. …” …HeartStoneFarms

Every time I try deliberate (prefer that word rather than strict) carnivore, I get oxalate dumping symptoms at between day 10 and 14. On one out of 4 carnivore run-throughs, those symptoms put me in hospital (heart symptoms). Currently the emergency department at the local hospital is not a bucket list destination.

Oxalate dumping is not real (and if your really worried about that drink pure lemon juice occasionally[2]); that’s your gut bugs[1] telling you they are starving to death (heart symptoms?) when your strictly feeding amino acid eating bacteria.

Oxalate Dumping? Lemon Juice from real Lemons = Real Oxalate Degradation/“Dumping”?

If you were really so sensitive to oxalates your kidneys would be a stone factory?

And further more you don’t “dump” oxalates, you dissolve them, these things are spiky crystalline like structures and they don’t just fall out of your body tissue.

References:

[1] “…The gut microbiome can increase the tendency of a plaque to rupture, reduce the ability of the artery to widen, and increase the tendency of blood to clot: not a healthy combination. So the bacteria in our gut probably are a risk factor for heart disease. …” …Harvard University

[2] “…Oxalobacter formigenes is an oxalate-degrading anaerobic bacterium that colonizes the large intestines of numerous vertebrates, including humans. O. formigenes and humans share a beneficial symbiosis. The broad-spectrum quinolone antibiotics kill O. formigenes. …” …More

[ctviggen]

I guess I don’t get why carnivore has become this magical elixir. If you go carnivore, and have to go to the hospital, why is that a good thing?

What does going carnivore accomplish, then?

In other words, what do you hope to achieve by going carnivore that you cannot achieve with keto?

[Elizedge]

First of all even 30 days of carnivore can help you do a reset and if you care to reintroduce anything you can do it one at a time and see if you actually do have any issues with a particular plant. Secondly, for some people eliminating that last bit of veg and increasing their protein and fat is a better way to handle autoimmune issues, mental health issues, even food addiction problems. I don’t think very many people need to be carnivore, but for those of us that do it is life-changing.

[ctviggen]

I totally agree with all of that.

I just think if a diet puts you in the hospital, maybe that’s not the diet for you?

[Elizedge]

I’m not really sure how eating a couple pounds of meat a day is going to put you in the hospital unless you have a severe underlying health issue completely unrelated to eating this way. The problems I’ve seen over 4 years in this community is that people wind up not feeling well because they are not eating enough.

[Corals]

So, eating eggs, or non grass fed meat can cause fatty liver disease?

[Elizedge]

I never eat grass-fed meat or eggs but that’s because eggs make me sick and I don’t like grass-fed meat. My liver numbers at age 63 are 13 and 14.

[FrankoBear]

Bunny your laughing at my oxalate dumping

[FrankoBear]

It’s greed Bob, greed. Greediness for healthiness. Too much of a good thing, maybe?

Keto eating gave a lot of health benefits compared to the government’s food recommendations and advice of standard dieticians and doctors: eat less and move more.

Carnivore was the next available door when keto health plateaued and I still wasn’t ready for that magazine cover photo shoot. Maybe that’s a bit facetious. I wanted to be healthier.

And then, by jingo, if I didn’t unearth another health issue that in standard medicine is incurable (like diabetes) and because I am over weight, but in functional (fringe) medicine it is due to micronutrient disregulation. So that sparks a hungry curiosity. I may be a cat.

The dietary change creates observable, repeatable symptoms of less than optimal health and I’m trying to explore why. Why is a healthy WOE unhealthy for some?

[David_Stilley]

So FrankoBear, are you underwear model ready now?

[FrankoBear]

Not even my underwear is ready for that.

[David_Stilley]

Or the world is my guess!

There used to be a popular bumper sticker here, Surf Naked. You just made me remember that one. Santa Cruz has the O’Neil Cold Water Classic and the yearly Maverick’s competition is pretty close too.

[atomicspacebunny]

So, eating eggs, or non grass fed meat can cause fatty liver disease?

Eating eggs but more specifically egg yolks (esp. raw; exogenous lecithin, cysteine, glutathione) and calf liver reverses fatty liver disease (NAFLD) and grass fed meat lowers blood glucose.

If you have alcohol related fatty liver disease or beginning stages of cirrhosis of the liver taking milk thistle will reverse and prevent it also. (bumps up production of endogenous glutathione in the liver and puts a thick protective enzymatic coating around the liver; what’s missing in most people; why they get diabetes?)

[atomicspacebunny]

Bunny your laughing at my oxalate dumping

If oxalates just fell out of your body from only consuming meat why worry about it to begin with?

And additionally meat or animal parts create oxalates in your body also, so the bro-science on that is comical to say the least. If the animal you are eating is eating oxalates so are you?

The horror stories you hear: “the oxalates are tearing me apart from the inside out?”

My answer: drink some dam lemon juice and quit thinking you are going to be in good health only eating meat?

…And if your really worried about oxalates re-populate your gut with oxalobacter formigenes from a supplement specifically designed for that purpose or a high quality soil based probiotic?

That dissolves oxalates in your gut!

image link

[Elizedge]

Oxalates

[atomicspacebunny]

Sally K. Norton? the worst bro-scientist on planet earth!

I think I lost 5 pounds in just laughing alone?

“…Now listen up children we all descended from cavemen and we only ate meat and we were never meant to eat plants and there is no such thing as oxalobacter formigenes, oh yes and humans never ate lemons…”.

[Elizedge]

Ad hominem attacks don’t prove anything.