Why are longer fasts more efficacious than daily IF?

(Doug) #52

Brian, there definitely is the thermogenic effect of protein digestion to consider. :slightly_smiling_face: A totally good thing, in my opinion.

Right on. :+1: My wife is a pretty serious carb addict, and despite my success so far with keto and fasting she’s really not into changing much of anything. 8 or 9 years ago, she lost about 30 pounds via more exercise and less food - made a big difference since she’s only five feet (1.5 meters) tall exactly. Ironically, that was at a low point in our marriage, when she was thinking of leaving me. :smile:

(Doug) #53

Justin, what do you see there that’s confounding? That the large amount of exercise didn’t prop up the metabolism?

(Justin Jordan) #54

The opposite, actually - there’s been at least a couple of studies showing a lot of exercise in a calories reduced state can make the metabolic shenanigans WORSE. Lyle McDonald has talked about this a bit.

Which could be an important variable, Precision Nutrition compared the BL results to people who’d lost weight via gastric bypass, and bypass patients had far less metabolic slowdown (although there was some) and lost less lean mass.

Some of that might be due to the hormonal effects of near fasting, but some of it may also be down to the huge amounts of exercise the BL contestants were doing.

(I honestly think people worry waaaaay too much about metabolic slow down, myself)

(Doug) #55

Well now that is confounding; who would have thought?

Co-signed!! (I put it in the same boat with fears about losing lean mass.)

(Dan Dan) #56

I’m sure the biggest loser contestants would disagree :open_mouth:

“Their Resting Metabolic Rates (RMR), the energy needed to keep the heart pumping, the lungs breathing, your brain thinking, your kidneys detoxing etc., drops like a piano out of a 20 story building. Over six months, their basal metabolism dropped by an average of 789 calories. Simply stated, they burning 789 calories less per day every day.”

https://idmprogram.com/difference-calorie-restriction-fasting-fasting-27/

(Justin Jordan) #57

Most people aren’t Biggest Loser contestants.

(Brian) #58

Maybe some of it might be about exactly what the Biggest Loser contestants were doing for exercise. It appeared that many of them were spending hours and hours and hours on a treadmill or elliptical or stationary bike type thing. Were they getting the HITT training that is a little more talked about as possibly raising the metabolism?

Just the thought that came to mind…

(Doug) #59

Dan, I was really surprised when I first read that. After thinking a little more about it, it coincided with a large weight loss, so perhaps not so surprising - a much heavier person will be burning a significantly greater amount, period, all other things being equal. But the exercise-increased-the-decline-in-BMR deal is still hard for me to get my head around.

#60

In one of the latest The Obesity Code podcasts Megan Ramos said that while for many people shorter fasts are okay, there are some cases where extended fasting is really needed - for instance such cases where the metabolism has been messed up with caloric restriction/yo-yo dieting. So from that that would be the recommended solution for the BL contestants as well - keto and extended fasting to heal the metabolism.

(Dan Dan) #61

:star_struck::heart_eyes::smile::open_mouth::clap::smiley:

(Doug) #62

I hope so, Allzed. :slightly_smiling_face:

Seems to me there is an amount of “inertia” to our metabolisms - that in the short-term it’s hard to change things much, for better or worse. And if there have been long-term changes for the worse, it’s probably going to take a good bit of time, work, better practices, etc., to move things back the other way. Insulin resistance is a good example here - it sometimes taking years to get enough improvement.

If there is “magic” at work, that seems to defy caloric calculations, I think the relationship with hormones is the best explanation. For 30 years I only gained about 5 pounds per year. I definitely liked it cool - my thermostat was apparently turned up some, but we’re pretty efficient at making heat. Good at making motion, too, without using up much energy. Want to burn off that hamburger you just ate? Go run 5 miles.

I don’t feel that a slightly elevated body termperature is all the explanation, however - far from it. There were a lot of weeks that I should have gained 5 lbs… Throw in a few 8000 calorie days and one would think the fat gain will be real, substantial and immediate. I wonder what else goes on…

#63

Dr Fung mentions he started fasting patients out of frustration. He had low patient compliance with LC diets. Many of his patients found it easier to control WHEN they eat rather than WHAT they eat.

I feel one of the nicest benefits of fasting is that it can be effective no matter what I eat. Sure it’s beneficial to combine it with a LC diet, but it’s not necessary. But don’t tell your wife, we wouldn’t want her to leave you :wink:

(KCKO, KCFO) #64

The Q&A by Megan Ramos on April 11’s Obesity Code podcast addresses a lot of this stuff.

What really caught my attention is their client data shows that 3 fasting days a week yields the best results. Clients can get off or lower significantly their meds and they lose weight within 6 weeks. Does not matter if it is was a MWF or consecutive days like MTW protocol.

(Joy) #65

Newbie here,
What does WOE mean?

#66

Way Of Eating. It’s a euphemism for diet (as a noun not a verb).

(Rob) #67

Look up the Acronym Wiki for stuff like that…

(Rob) #68

Indeed but if I remember some study I heard correctly, obese people typically eat less and exercise more than the general population. With a crappy diet, of course, it does little good but while not as extreme as the BL folks, it would tend to point them in the same direction?

(Justin Jordan) #69

Like I said, I feel like people worry too much about it. That’s not the same thing as saying there’s nothing there.

But you could go through this forum right now and find a number of posts in the last few days where people are worried they’re not eating enough. They feel good, they’re not hungry, they just don’t want to eat.

I think that’s because people think the metabolism is a lot more fragile than it (usually) is. You can look at the Biggest Loser stuff but you need to keep in mind that’s a circumstance very few people are likely to replicate.

I don’t know about obese people eating less and exercising more - to the best of my knowledge, that’s based on surveys asking people, and no metabolic ward study (which are not perfect either) has ever replicated it.

There’s a pretty substantial shame element involved with being overweight in our society, so it’s at least possible that people are, at least sometimes, subconsciously fudging the numbers.

If your goal is to lose weight, and you’re losing weight, not hungry and feel good, then I think there’s no good reason to worry about metabolic slowdown. But people do.

(Dan Dan) #70

And there is the problem in a nutshell and its called ‘Denial’ and if the Biggest Loser who used every tool in the Calories In Calories Out Play Book and ended in utter failure won’t convince you nothing will :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(Justin Jordan) #71

I’m not sure what point you think you’re arguing, but have fun with that,