When they say "it is water", they are correct, right?

(Susan) #14

For Sure! I agree very much with this. I really messed my body up so much, and I realize all the damage I did will take a while to fix. Once I am at maintenance I will be really enjoying all the Keto lifestyle even more, as I will be following my meals, and be able to walk and move!

(Full Metal KETO AF) #15

Arbre, my way of looking at this is XX lbs. is XX lbs. Water or fat? Who cares! You aren’t carrying it around all day anymore. Keto causes body recomposition with weight loss or gain happening depending on how you eat. But when a person new to keto needs to lose weight that big drop says in a huge way, This works and I believe it’s possible for me the hook is set.

Yes, progress rates will vary person to person, and over time as an individuals. It’s a constant tweaking process to find what keeps things working for you when you hit stall points as your weight lowers. People who don’t know this stuff can be put off when the rate slows down though or they don’t lose all 40 lbs. in a month because they read about a guy who did. Not everyone figures this out. I’m glad you joined our forum. :cowboy_hat_face:

#16

As one page puts it:

Each gram of glycogen is associated with 3-4 grams of water. So, as your body burns its way through the reduced dietary carbs and into the glycogen stores, the water attached to the glycogen is lost as well resulting in the phenomenon commonly known as “losing water weight.” There’s no fat loss here yet — it’s like the glycogen and accompanying water are squeezed out of your muscles and liver.

So yes, it will be weeks before you’re consistently drawing energy from fat. But I also remember reading or hearing somewhere that it’s good for you not to be carrying all that water.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #17

A remark: if water is lost initially, but then this water is recovered in the replenishing of glycogen reserves, this initial weight loss does not matter long term. This is just math.

A completely different thing is if losing that water is good/bad/irrelevant/… I have no answer to this question.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #18

@Arbre Others have already addressed the ‘water/fat’ initial loss issue. I want to add there are two theories of ‘fat adaptation’.

The first theory is that ‘fat adaptation’ occurs at a more or less specific moment when your cells adapt to burning fatty acids and/or ketones rather than glucose. You will read this as ‘fat adaptation usually occurs at x weeks or months’. The second theory is that ‘fat adaptation’ is a process that begins as soon as you adopt a ketogenic diet and glucose and glycogen are no longer available as fuel. This generally occurs within a few days. BUT, although cells and organs begin using ketones and fatty acids as fuel they do so very inefficiently. Only over time do they become more efficient. Thus, ‘fat adaptation’ becomes more and more efficient over some period of time, which is different for different people. It can take months to years for someone’s ‘fat adaptation’ to become totally efficient.

From a practical point of view, however, both theories mean that as you remove glucose as the primary fuel, ketones and fatty acids replace them. The longer you remain consistently in the ketogenic state of metabolism, the more efficiently your cells and organs utilize ketones and fatty acids. Ultimately, the ketogenic metabolic state is a healthier and more energetic state.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #19

Is the ketogenic metabolic state healthier? Is there a scientific proof of that?

I ask because assuming the “paleo hypothesis” (eating as homo did in the Paleolithic is the healthiest way of eating), shouldn’t keto be maintained for say 10 months, and a high carb diet be eaten for about two months, every year?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #20

What is the scientific evidence for that? Other than in very restricted climatic zones at the equator, the carbohydrates available during the Pleistocene were 90+% cellulose. Even in the equatorial zones it wasn’t much more. It’s a vege/vegan myth that humans ‘fattened up’ on plant nutrition during the summer in preparation for the winter. Whatever was available was insufficient to provide enough nutrition to make it through the summer, let alone into the winter. There was no ‘10 months in keto and 2 months not’.

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=paleolithic+ketogenic+diet&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #21

It is subjective. If you are an athlete, however, you will notice a drop in performance after beginning to eat ketogenically. The point of fat-adaptation is when performance returns to its previous level, or possibly even exceeds it (as some people report). The processes involved take place within muscle cells at the biochemical level; they also involve some healing on the part of existing mitochondria and the creation of new ones.

Yes. It is found in various measures. Glycated haemoglobin drops, markers of systemic inflammation return to the normal range, hypertension normalises, AGE’s are no longer a systemic problem, the body’s built-in mechanisms for dealing with oxidative stress are reactivated, mitochondria become more efficient, amyloid plaque and neurofibrillary tangles are reduced, pulse rate comes down, HDL usually goes up and triglycerides usually come down, the body sheds excess fat while retaining lean tissue—need I continue?

#22

If you have access to a device that measures RQ, it will tell you where you are on the scale of using glucose or fat as fuel.

It might not be an “easy way” given the limited availability of this device.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #23


#24

Perhaps you are thinking about the FASTER study? While liver glycogen has to be low enough ensure insufficient glucose supply, muscle glycogen can replenish itself overnight even on a keto diet. An athlete, or someone who depletes muscle glycogen with highly glycolytic workouts, would typically increase protein intake compared to a sedentary person in order to keep glucose flowing into muscle tissue. There are two ways to get glucose into the muscle: GLUT4 (insulin activated) and GLUT1 (no insulin required) transporters.

If it’s fat adaptation you’re after, then it’s the training regimen that will help. Basically, you exercise at an excruciatingly slow pace so that you are using as little glycogen as possible to promote upregulation of fat utilization. You guesstimate this by monitoring heart rate. You might want to take a look a Phil Maffetone’s writings on the subject. After fat adaptation, you can add glycolytic exercise back in and get the benefits of both. Some people also swear by exercise in the fasted state when ketone levels are higher and also provide an energy supply to working muscle after adaptation. (LINK to study)

(mole person) #25

The glycogen doesn’t come back from being fat adapted. Anyone who’s keto but who goes out of keto from time to time will tell you the same thing happens. You gain that water weight back…fast. And you lose it again… fast (though not as fast).

I’ve done this over a dozen times over my years on keto. I’ll have a chocolate bar on day 1 of my cheat, then another one the next day. Then back to strict keto. I gain 4 pounds by the third morning. I’ve done nothing different from regular keto except those two chocolate bars. So that’s a total of about 500 extra calories. It’s impossible to gain significant fat from that. Then, over the next 4-5 days, that weight comes off entirely, exactly the same way it did when I began the ketogenic diet the first time.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #26

Ilana, that’s great you can do that to yourself, and go right back to Keto afterwards.
Personally speaking, if I had one candy bar, that would turn into 2, and 2 would turn into 6, which would turn into the end of my healthy WOE… Apparently you were never addicted to sugar like I was, or your just super human…

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #27

That is an interesting comment. It seems that in order keto diet to work, one has to reach “perfection” for the rest of the life. For this reason, there are even keto chocolate cakes. So, in a sense it is doable.

But I guess that many people would say: I am willing to be keto the rest of my life (I have done it for say 1/2 years, and it has not been that hard) but I would like to take some “exceptions” during the year (Christmas, birthday of children, etc.).

This would seem reasonable. But I would agree with FishChris that, at least me, if I did an “exception” once, my brain probably would try to boycott me, and try that I “forget” about keto.

Of course, the ideal is what Ilana_Rose says: one day you take an “exception”, and after a few days of keto again, you recover your ideal weight again. In the end, there are not so many “exceptions” during the year. But we all know (at least I know) that my brain would boycott that.

Is there a reasonable attitude to handle this issue? Maybe visits a doctor on a very recurrent basis?

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #28

I won’t say perfection. But for me keto is a way of life. It is a journey. I’ve lost my desire for keto cheat things like keto cheesecake. I like the food eat and the taste of say ground beef gets better as I get healthier.

Cheat implies in sports or poker an ability to get an advantage. Cheating on a way of eating is the opposite. It takes me backwards. And so it might you.

Take it a day at a time and it is easier at first.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #29

@Arbre I’ve been thinking about your perfection analogy. You might be setting yourself up for failure because who among us can achieve perfection for more than a fleeting moment.

But we can set out sights on the journey and take most steps in that direction. Mindset is important.

Good lunch on your journey.

(mole person) #30

Lol… it’s funny you should say that. I have an Accountability thread titled “Willpower Wars” because I’m in a constant battle with a sugar monster in my brain. I actually cheat very seldom. My last was about ten days ago I had both McDonald’s fudge sundaes (four times) and daily coconut fat bombs over a week. But before that I didn’t touch even a hint of a food with artificial sweeteners for over 3 months.

My sugar monster can take complete control of my brain but he has an enemy that is stronger. Once the scale reaches a certain point I just become disgusted and go completely strict. My maintenance weight is between 104 and 106 lbs. Usually if I see 110 lbs the food holiday ends and I take myself all the way back to maintenance. The worst is 112 lbs, it never goes beyond that. The last time I was there was after the holidays when my ‘break’ went on and on and on. More than two months of nightly Mars Bars.:roll_eyes:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #31

That idea of making “exceptions” generally depends on people’s reasons for adopting a ketogenic way of eating. If, like me, you are afraid of developing diabetes, then an “exception” is highly undesirable and never intentional, because the risk of losing toes or even a whole foot is unacceptably high. That doesn’t mean that temptation never overwhelms such people (especially in the case of someone who is also a sugar addict), but merely that fear can be a strong motivation for taking care of oneself.

Planned cheats might make sense in the case of someone whose primary reason for eating ketogenically is merely to lose weight. Though many people who try that approach discover that, if they are keto long enough when they go off-plan, the treat either tastes far too sweet to be edible, or isn’t nearly as delicious as they had imagined.

In general, however, people tend to discover that once they start eating the proper human diet, they have very little motivation to return to a diet of processed crap.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #32

Daddyoh, well I don’t know…
I was on a different, but very hard core diet for 5 years, that included “zero” bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, processed sugar, or dairy (but did include a strict ration of carbs) and I never cheated on that for 5 years. Not once !
And I honestly believe that if my back injury had not derailed me, I’d still be eating exactly the same way.
Which on the one hand, I’d have been straight up buff, and ripped by now, but on the other hand, would be kind of sad, as I was starved all the time on that diet, in spite of eating 4000-5500 cals a day.
The Keto diet is night and day easier than my old WOE. So if I did that for 5 years, doing Keto every day religiously, for the rest of my life should be easy :slightly_smiling_face:

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #33

Yup!