When they say "it is water", they are correct, right?

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #1

Usually, anti-keto people say the significant weight losses during the beginning of a keto diet are not real fat losses, but water losses (glycogen reserves are depleted, which are mostly water).

Fat-adaptation, leading to fat burning to get body energy (lipolysis) happens a few weeks after the keto diet starts, so later than when the glycogen reserves are depleted.

Then, it is mostly true that at the beginning, most weight losses are due to water loss.

But then, I remember I read an article arguing that, at least for sportsmen, glycogen reserves were recharged after a few months, even in a keto diet (I forgot the reference, but I think it was on the Virta ones).

So, in the end, if this recharging of glycogen happens not only to sportsmen but to everybody (big if), in fact it is true that the initial weight loss is “irrelevant”, at least for the long term viewpoint, right? (from the viewpoint of initial encouragement, it is not irrelevant at all, though!).

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

I wouldn’t worry about it. Yes, a high percentage of the initial loss is probably water weight, but I would guess that it can’t all be, and any continuing loss is likely to be fat. Once you’re into the second week, how much more water could you have to lose?

(Robert C) #3

Yes, big initial weight swings (up or down) can be due to lots of things but, actual body fat changes - if you are really eating to satiety on Keto - might be very small (unless you are starting very heavy - it might be losing less than a pound a week or nothing or gaining a pound a week while eating well to improve / raise a broken metabolism and fat adapt).

Yes, the initial big jumps are irrelevant (unless it is a big jump down due to someone eating “Keto” foods but really calorie restricting - that will end as calorie restriction diets usually do - with a gain back of all lost weight and maybe more).

But as far as encouragement - I wish that was irrelevant.

In terms of encouragement for others - many people read about other people losing 50 pounds in the first 2 months and get unmeetable (for them) expectations. Maybe the 50-pound-weight-loss person is running 100 miles a week or calorie restricting or starting at 500 pounds - but, instead just states “I lost 50 pounds in 2 months on Keto” and others try for / expect the same and soon drop out or complain about realistic results like “I’ve been on Keto for 2 months and ONLY lost 5 pounds - this doesn’t work”.

In terms of encouragement for yourself. An 10 pound drop in the first week or two for some is a real problem. They immediately extrapolate and figure out they’ll they’ll be at their 50-pound-less goal weight in another 6 or 7 weeks. Really - with plateaus and moderate healthy Keto weight loss - it may be more like a year. That too leads to people giving up.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #4

I guess everybody has different motivation triggers. For me, I prefer a short term observable efficiency, even though I know things will slow down quite soon.

But in the end, what matters is the long term, and do things well. I hope I am in the right track!

(Scott) #5

This makes me think about an older podcast where Carl was pretty sure Richard didn’t lose 100lbs. of water weight.

(mole person) #6

This isn’t exactly correct but is a common point if confusion. Glycogen reserve depletion, ketogenesis, and fat burning start very quickly for most people on a ketogenic diet. Usually within two days.

Fat adaptation is a different thing. It’s a reference to when your metabolism gets more efficient at using ketones and fatty acids for fuel. Prior to fat adaptation people tend to be hungry, craving carbs, weak, tired and have difficulty exercising. That goes away with fat adaptation. But you can start to lose body fat as soon as your glycogen draws down and you enter ketosis. That happens at similar speeds in the fat adapted and non fat adapted alike and generally happens in 24-48 hrs.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #7

Also, if eating carbs causes you to retain water, why is losing that water weight a bad thing? I’m fine with shedding the water I don’t need. As long as you understand that the continued fat loss won’t be as quick as the water loss, I don’t see the problem.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #8

Is there an empirical and easy way to determine when a person who is in ketosis has finally become fat adapted?

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #9

Nope! And it isn’t a binary thing. Most people feel well adapted after about 8 weeks, meaning they don’t get hangry and if they are athletic they see their athletic performance return to or exceed pre-keto levels. But it is important to remember not everyone’s experience is the same. But a year or two later people still notice changes that lead them to believe they are more fat adapted than they were before.

#10

The only real problem I see is for those that have the misconception that keto can be a quick way to lose a few pounds. So they cheer when the (water) weight comes off quickly, dropping the 10 or 15 pounds they’ve tried to lose for so long.

But then, believing they’ve been successful at losing the weight they wanted to, they go back to eating carbs. The glycogen stores build up again, and they bind water to them, adding back all that (water) weight they just lost.

As we all know, going back to the same old eating habits gives the same old results.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #11

Which is the same as any diet.

(Susan) #12

Yes, I did this yo-yo dieting for years, and it really messed up my metabolism, which I am still trying to get re-stabilized! Thankfully, with Keto for life now =).

#13

I saw the best diet advice the other day. I’m not going to do it justice by paraphrasing it, but it was something like:

“You need to find a way of eating that you can live with for the rest of your life and be happy with what it does to you.”

Overly simplistic, because exercise can be an important factor, and aging can change how diet and exercise affect the body over time, but it should be an evolving process of small tweaks here and there to achieve some kind of steady state, not a “yo-yo” process swinging back and forth between extremes.

(Susan) #14

For Sure! I agree very much with this. I really messed my body up so much, and I realize all the damage I did will take a while to fix. Once I am at maintenance I will be really enjoying all the Keto lifestyle even more, as I will be following my meals, and be able to walk and move!

(Full Metal KETO AF) #15

Arbre, my way of looking at this is XX lbs. is XX lbs. Water or fat? Who cares! You aren’t carrying it around all day anymore. Keto causes body recomposition with weight loss or gain happening depending on how you eat. But when a person new to keto needs to lose weight that big drop says in a huge way, This works and I believe it’s possible for me the hook is set.

Yes, progress rates will vary person to person, and over time as an individuals. It’s a constant tweaking process to find what keeps things working for you when you hit stall points as your weight lowers. People who don’t know this stuff can be put off when the rate slows down though or they don’t lose all 40 lbs. in a month because they read about a guy who did. Not everyone figures this out. I’m glad you joined our forum. :cowboy_hat_face:

#16

As one page puts it:

Each gram of glycogen is associated with 3-4 grams of water. So, as your body burns its way through the reduced dietary carbs and into the glycogen stores, the water attached to the glycogen is lost as well resulting in the phenomenon commonly known as “losing water weight.” There’s no fat loss here yet — it’s like the glycogen and accompanying water are squeezed out of your muscles and liver.

So yes, it will be weeks before you’re consistently drawing energy from fat. But I also remember reading or hearing somewhere that it’s good for you not to be carrying all that water.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #17

A remark: if water is lost initially, but then this water is recovered in the replenishing of glycogen reserves, this initial weight loss does not matter long term. This is just math.

A completely different thing is if losing that water is good/bad/irrelevant/… I have no answer to this question.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #18

@Arbre Others have already addressed the ‘water/fat’ initial loss issue. I want to add there are two theories of ‘fat adaptation’.

The first theory is that ‘fat adaptation’ occurs at a more or less specific moment when your cells adapt to burning fatty acids and/or ketones rather than glucose. You will read this as ‘fat adaptation usually occurs at x weeks or months’. The second theory is that ‘fat adaptation’ is a process that begins as soon as you adopt a ketogenic diet and glucose and glycogen are no longer available as fuel. This generally occurs within a few days. BUT, although cells and organs begin using ketones and fatty acids as fuel they do so very inefficiently. Only over time do they become more efficient. Thus, ‘fat adaptation’ becomes more and more efficient over some period of time, which is different for different people. It can take months to years for someone’s ‘fat adaptation’ to become totally efficient.

From a practical point of view, however, both theories mean that as you remove glucose as the primary fuel, ketones and fatty acids replace them. The longer you remain consistently in the ketogenic state of metabolism, the more efficiently your cells and organs utilize ketones and fatty acids. Ultimately, the ketogenic metabolic state is a healthier and more energetic state.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #19

Is the ketogenic metabolic state healthier? Is there a scientific proof of that?

I ask because assuming the “paleo hypothesis” (eating as homo did in the Paleolithic is the healthiest way of eating), shouldn’t keto be maintained for say 10 months, and a high carb diet be eaten for about two months, every year?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #20

What is the scientific evidence for that? Other than in very restricted climatic zones at the equator, the carbohydrates available during the Pleistocene were 90+% cellulose. Even in the equatorial zones it wasn’t much more. It’s a vege/vegan myth that humans ‘fattened up’ on plant nutrition during the summer in preparation for the winter. Whatever was available was insufficient to provide enough nutrition to make it through the summer, let alone into the winter. There was no ‘10 months in keto and 2 months not’.

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=paleolithic+ketogenic+diet&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart