When insulin is elevated, how do other diets succeed at least short term?

(Robert Hollinger) #1

Everything I’m reading about keto makes sense both logically and scientifically. But yet other diets can succeed at least short term (and for some people long term). but are not specifically low carb. Certainly they are likely lower carb (except being the rice or potato extreme diets).

I lost over 70 pounds using something called the quick weight loss center. The diet comprised basically 4 servings of protein, 2 starches, 2 or 3 fruits, 4 veggies, 1 serving of fat. plus 2 protein supplements (that not surprisingly they sell). Oh and a host of support supplements (MultiVit, EFA, starch blocker (white bean), herbal appetite suppressants and some “thermogenic” drink. and extremely controlled sodium (likely due to the “guarantee”)

There is a strict list of foods that you have to stick to that they seem to think is magic but it seems more they are foods low in fat and sugar. but of course there is a lot of crap in their supplements. But I lost 70 pounds in like 4 months and with pretty severe abuse it took several years to gain it back. This all happened while I was type 2 and certainly insulin resistant.

If insulin blocks the fat from being released, how did this happen? Is it because the diet is low-ish in carbs that the insulin was still able to be released? Is it ultimately ketogenic when push comes to shove just at a higher carb level? The starches were things like 1/2 white potato 3 times a week and 1/4 cup rice 3 times a week and otherwise very unsatisfying things like 2 melba toasts, 1 slice “diet” bread (less than 45 cal).

Even as unsatisfying as most of the starches were, I was eating all the time and was never hungry. certainly by eating every couple of hours and every meal having some carb component this would keep insulin high. So how did the fat burn off?

(Adam Kirby) #2

A hypocaloric diet will actually lower insulin, at least for a while.

A diet high in carbs but devoid of fat can make you lose fat as well (see: skinny low fat vegans), since your body “optimizes” its glucose handling and doesn’t have dietary fat interfering.

A diet paired with crazy amounts of intense exercise will deplete your glycogen and lower insulin.

For sure, low carb is not the only way to lose weight. It just happens to be the easiest and most sustainable for most people. And in the other methods your insulin is in fact being lowered.

(Robert Hollinger) #3

But if you are having carbs which raise insulin and are doing it every couple of hours which sustains raised insulin, how does it lower it? or is it just a matter of extremes (SAD causes EXTREMELY high insulin, other diets cause moderate to low insulin)?

(Adam Kirby) #4

There are multiple metabolic pathways for everything in the body, including the drawing down of body fat in a high-carb hypocaloric environment. I believe @richard explained the specifics of this metabolic hack once, maybe he can lay the biochemistry on you.

This article is also worth reading. It’s a little over the top with its wide-eyed amazement but still a good rundown of the truth that carbs by themselves are not responsible for weight gain.

(Robert Hollinger) #5

In the case I’m talking about it’s not high carb, more like high protein moderately low carb very low fat. But I guess since the protein can convert to sugar than ultimately it’s more like moderate carb and the logic may still apply.

(Adam Kirby) #6

Ah. My mistake. That will for sure lose body fat, since you are minimizing both of your main energy sources. It’s the principle behind the protein-sparing modified fast. Ben Bikman gave a great talk at Low Carb Breck how protein doesn’t actually spike insulin much if carbs are restricted, and keeps a favorable insulin:glucagon ratio which is one of the primary markers of a catabolic state. It makes perfect sense to me that such a diet would burn body fat.

(Adam Kirby) #7

Basically the obesigenic combo is high carb+high fat, if you’re not doing that there’s a reasonable chance you can burn body fat.

(Robert Hollinger) #8

I’m going to have to listen to that. I saw that Dr Bikman is the guest on Ketovangelist podcast this week so he may be addressing the same info. I really want to understand how all this stuff works.

I don’t buy the stuff that have been posted recently that say that extremely low carb causes insulin resistance, That frankly doesn’t make sense. I can see that low carb can blow a glucose tolerance test because it’s an extreme but it doesn’t make sense that it would cause resistance. Granted I haven’t seen any real science one way or the other.

(Robert Hollinger) #9

ahh yes. potato chips, french fries, doughnuts, cakes, cookies. got it. the SAD :slight_smile:

(Adam Kirby) #10

My best understanding of what causes insulin resistance, is maxing out your subcutaneous fat storage. Until that happens your fat cells have no reason to become insulin resistant since it’s their primary job to response to elevated insulin by storing fat.

This is the best video I’ve watched that explains how IR actually occurs. It’s not necessarily the carbs by themselves, it’s the HCHF eating pattern that overstuffs your adipocytes.

(Mary) #11

This is absolutely fantastic, Adam. Thank you for posting the video. I’m doing everything “right” (afaik) but am beginning to suspect that exercise may be the piece of the puzzle I’m missing. I also understand, very clearly, how much damage I did to myself with the ice cream fueled binges from the old days…

(Adam Kirby) #12

I think I’ve done a complete 360 on exercise as it pertains to losing weight.

Before I started low carb my thought was, of course exercise helps to lose weight, it burns calories.

After a while of reading the keto luminaries my attitude changed… obviously exercise doesn’t work, since the idea of calorie burn is stupid.

And yet now I’ve kinda circled back around… what if exercise in fact helps to lose weight, but not because of the calories burned, but because it can deplete glycogen and increase fat oxidation? The problem becomes then, to exercise in a way that depletes glycogen without beating the shit out of yourself for hours a day.

I’m refining my assumptions all the time!

(Mary) #13

Exactly! I’m going out of my way to find hills to walk up as quickly as possible in order to deplete my glycogen, much the same way I now go for the fattiest cuts of meat. A complete 180 but if you keep doing what you’ve always done, you keep getting the same results…

(Liz ) #14

Dr Fung says that every diet works, for six months, but then they all quit working unless you aim at getting your insulin lower. And that has been my personal experience.

#15

This has been one of my questions. I wondered about it when I first started keto, never really got the answer and now have stopped wondering because keto is so much easier than anything else. I would still like the answer but it does not press me the way it did when I was new

(Robert Hollinger) #16

one reason I’m wondering is my nutritionist didn’t seem to be anti-keto if it’s working for me but feels as though I should have seen more results by now and that it may not be working for me but if the other plan did work previously that I should consider that at least initially to kick-start the process.

i know KCKO and I supposedly have lost some inches in my chest (hopefully not muscle) but have been having to fast to see any results on the scale. And the fasting seems to be getting progressively worse for me. (not hunger but probably electrolyte imbalances)

Makes me wonder if there isn’t something to what she said that maybe I should stick with what worked before to at least get the process going.

Actually, I wonder is it likely that as I continue to try to fast (intermittent 16/8, 1 day, 3 day) is it possible that as I burn off some of the subcutaneous fat, could it be saturated with glucose/glycogen that gets released into my blood stream (blood sugar still a little high especially in the mornings) and as that glucose gets burned off i’m losing more water than just the initial flush of glycogen from the liver causing progressively worse dehydration

(Jeanne Wagner) #17

The non-scale victories are very real and don’t forget your hormones are being rearranged and regulated via keto. Blood work tells the story. The right blood work. And if you’re feeling great, and getting healthy. The weight will follow in its time.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #18

Generally, people on hypocaloric diets reduce carbs versus SAD, just by reducing calories. They don’t get all the benefit of going keto, but they do get some carb reduction benefit, even though they are seeming to eat a lot of carbs.

(Robert Hollinger) #19

So I never really looked at what the macros were when I was doing that other plan. apparently in spite of feeling like I was eating all the time it really was super low calorie (if myfitnesspal is accurate) and higher fat than I thought but still pretty low. also lower protein than I thought. Ultimately it was low calorie high protein moderate carb (some would still consider it keto) and low fat.

For an average day (and I didn’t change it up a whole lot) it appears it was:

Calories: 1008
Carbs: 93
Fat: 29
Protein: 104

Breakfast was:
187 calories, 5 carbs, 13 fat and 12 protein
Midmorning and afternoon snack was 30 calories 10 carbs 1 protein
Lunch was 300 calories 36 carbs 7 fat 25 protein
late afternoon and late evening protein supplement: 90 calories 7 carbs 2 fat 12 protein
Dinner was probably usually roughly about the same as lunch

So it was roughly always pairing a carb with a protein (though that wasn’t required for the plan) and spreading out the food throughout the day.

Oh I almost forgot, 2 thermogenic drinks that contained 4 carbs

Interesting. (to me at least)

(Candy Lind) #20

Back in 2007-8 I lost over 100 pounds on a diet like that. Then I started eating sugar again and I was once again on the uphill side of the roller coaster. Yeah, it worked to some extent, but I still had 30-40 pounds to go when I started back up the hill. Not doing that again!!