Weight Loss Impasse

(Full Metal KETO AF) #21

You diagnosed yourself, I didn’t. :cowboy_hat_face:

(The crazy German guy) #22

Look, I mentioned the guy needs to measure his caloric intake „precisely“.
Turns out he didn’t measure his intake on nuts correctly.

Now, go ahead…

Your advice was the usual „it takes time… be patient…“ nonesense that doesn’t help anybody.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #23

It was carbs he didn’t account for correctly as he stated himself. You aren’t going to get any support preaching CICO here from 95% of us, the remaining 5% including you are seriously delusional about how ketogenic eating works.

Don’t just “stuff your face” as you say, which I agree with. What we disagree on is you suggest religiously following a calculator which tells you how much you’re allowed in calories, compared to the goal of healing hormonal responses through what you eat and having your food needs known through the proper feedback loop your body already has. No calculator necessary, your body is smarter and will continuously tell you what you need if you learn to listen.

I too have lost over 100 lbs but I didn’t do it counting calories or macros other than carbs. I didn’t have to put all that thought and effort into losing weight and I ate appropriately for my day to day needs for food. Some days more, some days less or not at all. I leaned to know when I had eaten the right amount of food for my body’s needs.

I really don’t know much about your age and health but not everyone is able to greatly increase their physical activity or do weight lifting where you can stay fairly healthy for some time at a younger age and keep up an athletic routine to sustain those results eating non ketogenic. Sure you can get bigger muscle bulk easier eating some more carbs and weightlifting.

I never said any such thing, you’re making stuff up now. :roll_eyes:

(The crazy German guy) #24

Decent answer and fair enough.

Notice my initial statement „so you’re doing keto for weight loss“, fully aware that other people might follow keto for health benefits other than weight loss.

I lost around 25kg doing keto. I’m still between 50g - 100g net carbs today in my non-keto diet.
I really only ever started to count calories due to the necessity to track net carbs, and noticed how much food I’m consuming. Whole bag of nuts? 900kcal and a significant amount of carbs. Joghurt? Forget the low fat ones… etc…
And it’s exactly those basics that people get wrong - whatever diet they are following. Hence, the first thing I always ask when talking to people that complain they don’t understand why they’re not losing weight : are you tracking every single bite?

Nuts are famous for having more carbs than people think. Boom, you’re wondering what’s going on.
Other diets, people don’t record stupid small things. The milk in their grande super tall coffee. The fat they use to sizzle meat… it’s just too common to not ask that question.

What it takes to not wonder anymore is a precise calorie or macronutrient recording.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #25

Thermodynamics is something that exists in a closed system and doesn’t apply to biological life forms, you can’t out think biodynamics. But what can we expect from a CICO stalwart.

This is my last post, Eat whatever you like and what works for you. This forum is about ketogenic eating and lifestyle. If you see us as stupid people that’s up to you, but it seems like you are trying to rewrite KETO and this last statement is a total contradiction. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Linda ) #26

The thing with the Dr is he has been obese so “he does get it” he has lived it. You say we can’t listen to our body, but if you drink water, you only drink so much before you put it down (your body signaling its had enough). If you eat steak for a meal you only eat so much before you’ve had enough. (Again your body telling you its signal of full) Its the carbs that don’t have the fill feeling.signal an example you can eat dinner of steak and feel full but if somone offered you chocolate or a carb loaded desert you can find room. So even as a “fatty” yes my body does tell me if I listen, if I don’t listen and eat too fast I get that overstuffed full feeling cos I ate too much.
Keto is the first time I’ve been able to eat til full and be able to cut down to 2 meals a day with no snacking or grazing…that is game changing for me…“a healthy relationship with food” i have, but ill never have a healthy relation ship with carbs and its accepting that and removing them has allowed me to feel full by embracing that fat has a big role in my life keeping me full and no longer constantly hungry.
As I said this isn’t a diet it has to be a way of life for me. I can’t go back to eating carbs or my previous "old normal " or ill go back to where I was regaining everything I lost and losing all the health benifits I’m gaining now. Like no longer pre diabetic.
Its great that you have found something else that works better for you that’s awesome. I don’t buy into the notion that there is a one single diet that works for everyone. Keto is prob not for everyone and that’s OK. But carbs are what made me a “fatty” not food…

(Peter) #27

“Physics is not physiology” is a poster I saw somewhere. Exactly right.

(Doug) #28

Who says that, beyond someone engaging in wishful thinking? In the end, the math is going to work out just fine, and no god from the machine comes down and touches anybody with a magic wand, making fat melt away.

Actually, it applies just as much to life forms, i.e. there is no magic at work and it all really comes down to atoms of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, for the most part; matter and energy will be preserved (perfectly, for all practical purposes, in this case). Objections to CICO almost always miss the fact that it’s a statement of equation or a relationship, while denying the very premise in the first place.

This does not mean to say counting calories, per se, is necessarily a good way to lose weight (really, to lose fat) - it’s not for vast numbers of people. It’s also wrong to not consider both sides of the equation/relationship, i.e. don’t complain about CICO if you’re only going to look at one side of it.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #29

We lose body heat to the atmosphere, we breathe out and urinate excess ketones. How can you say it still applies Doug? People like Robert Lustig totally disagree with that comparison. Thermodynamics doesn’t account for the different ways our bodies deal with the individual macronutrients making calories a deceptive measurement for fuel our bodies run off of, or that we waste energy and utilize food differently as individuals. That’s why I disagree with you. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Peter) #30

People who understand that the body isn’t a “closed system” in terms of physics, and that physics doesn’t account for things like hormones.

(Doug) #31

David, what do you say there that makes you doubt that thermodynamics, physical laws or absolute amounts of matter and energy apply?

Of course we’re not closed systems - everything is already predicated on that, i.e. we eat and drink, breathe, excrete, metabolize stuff etc. Energy (and matter) come and go, and thermodynamics is always satisfied. We either metabolize stuff, store it or excrete it.

I would have to see what he said, specifically. But it’s not going to disprove thermodynamics or physics in any way. If his complaint is that the “Calories Out” doesn’t always follow the “Calories In,” well yeah, no kidding - we all know that. But that’s no indictment of CICO. Hey, CICO mentions the calories out side, not just the calories in side, and if you’re not doing it (keeping track of both) then don’t blame CICO. CICO says 1 of 3 things is gonna happen - you’re either gonna lose weight, stay the same, or gain weight. CICO (and thermodynamics) is fine with any of the outcomes, even if we as individuals are not.

Why would it not account for it? :slightly_smiling_face: One person has energy going to one place, a second person has energy going to a different place. Ain’t no bad thing for thermodynamics. If person A metabolizes 200 grams of fat that they removed from their internal storage one day, and person B does not, that doesn’t mean that CICO is suddenly invalid nor that thermodynamics isn’t right with both people all along.

I realize that the argument is not likely to die a long-term death, (:smile:), but I don’t see it as a valid criticism of physics, thermodynamics or CICO - I see it as people on the one side just not taking care of the “CO.” They want to shoot the messenger, when CICO is saying, “Here’s what’s happening.”

Having somebody be inside a calorimeter removes all doubt about this, but from a mathematical/physical point of view, there can’t be any doubt in the first place.

The body doesn’t have to be a closed system. Heck, a premise here is that it’s not - if we’re alive then the “Out” side always has something going on. Physics doesn’t have to account for hormones, physics is just seeing energy and matter come from and go to various places. Joe Blow has low insulin and fires up X amount of calories worth of stored fat one day. Jane Doe has higher insulin and only fires up the lesser amount, Y. Physics is seeing all this stuff go on, and isn’t perturbed or invalidated in the least.

There are now calorimeters that are large enough to house a person for a good while. They can measure heat, the gases like oxygen and carbon dioxide, even water vapor. Nothing can ‘hide’ from them and they demonstrate that the math really does work out, from kilos, quarts, liters and pounds down through grams, calories, joules, molecules, right to the atoms of the elements involved.

By far, the most common objection to CICO that I’ve seen involves desired weight loss and denying the premise of CICO. CICO is saying, “Do this - keep calories out higher than calories in - and you’ll lose weight.” Then somebody comes storming in, saying, *"Hey, ****** - ******, I cut Calories In but I didn’t lose weight! :rage:"

CICO, having encountered this before, to a frustrating degree, snatches his hat off his head and throws it to the ground, exclaiming, “Well, you didn’t do what I said!”

(The crazy German guy) #32

Nice description, but it is correct.
I didn‘t lose weight several times, for months. With Keto, with Carbs, with OMAD, it doesn‘t matter. Every single time the result was that i was eating more than i should be.
I was still in a deficit, but only by 200kcal for example. Then, with heavy lifting, i was storing water that made it look like i was in fact increasing my weight.

I too saw that video of Jason Fung saying calories don‘t work, hormones do. I read his book and all the rest of the recommended sources we keep talking about so often here.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to translate this to „as long as it doesn‘t influence insulin i can eat whatever i want in the quantity i want“. And then they create discussions here on why they‘re not losing weight, only to get the recommendation that it would still take time for their bodies to adjust.

Start with the basics. Count your calories/macros - make sure it‘s correct - move on.

(Linda ) #33

This calories in calories out doesn’t always work it comes up often in bariatric patients that have forced restriction upon them…initially they might lose 20 lbs while their body is healing from surgery and can only take in a teaspoon or half a teaspoon of food but then it comes to a crashing stop as soon as they can move it up slightly… some just can’t lose weight no matter how hard they try and end up going in for revision surgery and get malapsorption surgery from sleeve to bypass or sleeve to deudonal switch. Or lap band revisions So there has to be more to it than just saying don’t eat as much and youll lose weight.

(The crazy German guy) #34

I know only a few of those people. They lost weight, even being stupid (drinking Coca Cola, etc…). And they look terrible, because they don‘t exercise even if they could (no health related restrictions anymore).

I don‘t really know what this surgery does to people in terms of metabolism. I‘d aassume a drastically reduced calorie intake also induces NEAT to go down, thermic effect of food to go down, etc…

Anyhow, we‘re getting very specific here. The only people i know that had this surgery had to undergo at least a full year of a exercise / diet program, accompanied by their doctor etc… They even had to go and see a psychiatrist for a limited amount of time. All to „certify“ that they can‘t control their weight at their own will. Don‘t know how it is in other countries.

Keto worked really well for me in terms of appetite control and eating „fun“ foods. I will go back probably later in this year, when outdoor activities will become less due to weather conditions. Right now I‘m so active, i can eat whatever the hell i want and still lose weight. I use it as a tool in my toolbox, just as well as OMAD / IF,…

(Linda ) #35

You cant cut ppl off as a "select group of ppl "they are ppl like you and i that are desperate to lose weight and have tried most diets under the sun like the rest of us probably and eventually get to where they want off the yo yo dieting cycle diet regain diet and are willing to try anything eincluding weight loss surgery…
Even with that the success rate is very very low some where in only 5 to 10 percent success rate .

Its is a weight loss tool but it doesn’t stop the hunger from returning or the cravings from returning. Just as eat stop eat/ IF/ EF are all tools. And even your calorie counting.

You maybe one of the specialty lucky group that for you calories in calories out worked for you and thats great hats off to you…

It doesn’t even work for biggest loser contestants they have great intentions when the show ends and they’ve lost their weight but then what?? 90 percent or higher put it back on cos its just not sustainable.

But telling ppl to watch ever calorie entering their mouth… Since your familiar with keto program why not suggest log all items that enter their mouth and then check their macros.?

(Doug) #36

I am quite a Dr. Fung fan. I think what he’s talking about, there, is that “just counting calories” or “reducing intake of calories” is often a bad way to go, for people. And of course - agreed, no doubt about it. But that’s only looking at the “In” side.

Things are rarely predictable in a linear fashion. Long ago, for me many"extra calories" went to more heat production versus being stored as fat. Now I end up wearing them. :smile: Some people do seem to be able to eat substantially more on a keto diet and not gain weight, while others (I would guess a large majority) will gain weight - anything that makes the body store triglycerides, really.

But here again we don’t know what the ‘calories out’ is. Bariatric surgery makes an enormous difference, usually - so much hormonal change right away. I know people who had the experience you mention, exactly - initial big changes, weight loss, but then later things start heading back to “the old way.”

Well yeah, definitely. :slightly_smiling_face: Both the “in” and the “out” must be considered.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #37

Did you always have an issue with overeating before keto or was it more a matter of poor food choices? Have you ever felt enough was enough eating KETO? I personally find it hard to over eat on KETO, maybe because of my food choices and shying away from complex keto concoctions like pizza mostly. But I frequently make what I think I want quantity wise and don’t end up finishing what my brain said I needed but my body said no you don’t 3/4 of the way through eating. I listen to that now where before I didn’t and would continue to eat because yummy carbs. Maybe CICO is at play but I never plan or calculate that or even monitor it. I think most of the folks who have problems with sensing that were and are still chronic over eaters and to me that moves into the psychologically department from dietary considerations. The rest of us develop natural sense about how much is enough. That’s how our bodies are supposed to function. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Doug) #38

David - many is the time I’ve remarked on just how satisfying keto food is. Sausage and sauerkraut, bacon and eggs, steak, etc. Totally agree - it’s personally hard to overeat on keto. I’ve never really counted calories or monitored anything day-to-day.

While I don’t think there is any getting around the ‘laws of the universe,’ I also don’t think that is the problem for most of us. Refined foods, processed foods, adulterated, easy-to-eat foods, especially when high-carb - this is most of the problem, IMO. I used to eat 6 or 12 or 18 servings of that kind of stuff; it was easy to do so and the carbs ~~> insulin ~~> down goes blood sugar ~~> up goes hunger = me. Make a huge bowl of soup, dump in 80 or 120 saltine crackers…

Always issues - showing off, being competitive, truly glorying in the excess, literally being stupid for the sake of being stupid. The human organism is a tough one - I should be dead.