Website that indicates if you need fat on a fast


(Tom Whiter) #1

I saw a website that had a calculator that tells you if you needed to add fat while extended fasting. It was based on your lean body mass and the premise that you can only burn a certain percentage of your body fat per day. It said that as you get thinner, you needed to add more fat to your fast to prevent metabolic slowdown. I think I’m currently overweight enough to not need to add any fat but I’d like to look again, as I’ve lost a good bit recently.

For the life of me I can’t find that site again, does anyone have a link to anything similar, please?


#2

Tom,

There are 2 good web calculators:

Cheers,
Corey


(Alan Williamson) #3

A person will get metabolic slowdown if they are cutting calories, but not fasting. During fasting, adrenalin will be high and HGH will be high. A person will be amped so much so they have problems sleeping.


(Randy) #4

I remember @richard saying that each fat cell could only give up a certain amount of energy in a day. The amount I can’t remember because I still have plenty of fat. :wink:

But if you’re too lean, your available fat stores will not be able to cover your energy needs, and your metabolism could go down when fasting.

Adding fat in that circumstance makes sense because you can get many of the benefits of fasting while maintaining your metabolism.


#5

I understand the theory. Here’s the problem I have with it. I know people who fast regularly (for spiritual reasons) who are thin (low body fat, even 6 packs). To my knowledge, nobody’s had checked their TDEE checked before and after, but they don’t seem to have any negative consequences over the years.

The metabolically healthy, normal weight people that I’ve observed lose weight during a fast, some a lot some very little. And they put it back on when they resume eating, usually pretty quickly. Sometimes the last few pounds take a while. They do not end up weighing more.

For other perspectives, check out YouTube. There are fitness oriented folks who’ve shared their EF experiences. Many have done 2-4 day water fasts.


(Tom Whiter) #6

Thanks Corey, that 2 Keto article was the exact one I was looking for!

I was 350 last April and now I’m 273. At 6’3 with a lean body mass around 200 and a high TDEE, I was concerned that as I continued to drop weight, I might need to check the calculator to make sure I had enough fat stores for the extended fasts.

As for my metabolism, I dropped 16lbs on a 7 day fast a couple of weeks ago. I regained 6lb after feasting keto for another week. Doing crude math at 35k (10lb of fat) ÷ 7 days = 5000kcals burned per day on my water fast. I’m happy with that!


(What The Fast?!) #7

I’ve been wondering about this for awhile. I can derive around 1350-1400 calories from fat, but I never know if I should supplement fat during a fast or not. My main goal is weight loss, but Jason Fung talks specifically about how your TDEE changes all the time, so it’s hard to know how much you’re actually burning.

I’ve had one of those RMR tests done, where they measure exactly how many calories you’re burning, and it said my RMR was 1344, but that was 7 months ago and I also continue to work out while I fast…so no idea if I should be supplementing fat while I fast or not.


(Bunny) #8

The Five Stages of Fasting – Dr. Nikolayev [Russian Case Studies]

Introduction

During a visit at the local library I stumbled upon a book on fasting (written in Romanian). I do most of my reading on my tablet, for convenience. Trying to locate the book on Amazon Kindle returned an empty query. To my surprise, the book was not available/translated to English. It was only available in French. So, I bought the book – the physical copy.

I’m not sorry about the investment I made. Many concepts and ideas from this book are also detailed in my book Periodic Fasting. This is great because when some of my fellow Romanians will ask me to translate my book, I could simply guide them to book of Lestrade, which is already available in Romanian.

Furthermore, Thierry Lestrade obtained first-person access to research and experiments conducted by Russian scientists and doctors with regards to therapeutic fasting. Much of this research will be lost in the archives of Russian institutes as they have not (and most likely will not) been translated into other languages, unless we can do something about it.

In this entry I will describe the five stages of prolonged water fasting, as it has been widely used in the practice of Dr. Yuri Nikolayev3, the Director of the Fasting Clinic of The Moscow Institute of Psychiatry for many years.

He claimed to have successfully treated more than 7,000 patients (as of 1972) suffering from neuro-psychiatric conditions by using therapeutic fasting. The average duration of a fast would be 30 days. He probably oversaw the experience of more than 10,000 patients because in 1972 he was only at the heights of his career.

Dr. Yuri Nikolayev (1905 – 1998) was first exposed to the practice of fasting in his early childhood. Whenever he or his brother Lev would get sick, their mother treated them with 2-3 days of fasting. His father, Serghei Nikolayev, was a polyglot. He wrote, edited, and translated to and from several languages. In 1913 he got his hands on Upton Sinclair’s book The Fasting Cure. There was a frequent exchange of letters between Serghei and the American author.

Long story short, these letters together with Sinclair’s book would have a profound influence on young Yuri’s personal experience with fasting as well as the implementation of therapeutic fasting in his medical practice.

The Five Stages of Fasting – Dr. Yuri Nikolayev1

I will start with an article from Los Angeles Times, published Apr. 3, 1972. Written by Murray Seeger, the article was titled Soviet Cure-All: Eat Nothing for 30 Days. You can read it in its entirety here (it’s paid access).

MOSCOW—Vladimir Leshkovtsev had the flu and was sore all over. The doctors he saw told him he had infectious metabolic polyarthritis. The doctors treated Vladimir for six weeks but he felt no better. He decided to be his own doctor and to follow a radical course of treatment he had only heard about. [3]

Hearing about the successful stories of therapeutic fasting that Dr. Nikolayev used with his patients, Vladimir decided to give it a try. He ate nothing, but drank plenty of water, for 45 days. He was relieved of his arthritis. Bonus: he lost 44 pounds and has not seen a doctor for the last 10 years since his fast ended.

“Leshkovtsev was in great danger of becoming an invalid,” Dr. Yuri Nikolayev of the Moscow Research Institute of Psychiatry observed. “The experiment conducted by him is one of the most successful cases of healing.” [3]

For maintenance, Vladimir would continue fasting 8-10 days every year.

Other soviet doctors reported to have treated various pathologic conditions with fasting, ranging from: metabolic disorders, gallstones, hypertension, asthma, tumors, hypochondria (!) and several others. These are anecdotal claims. We cannot know their validity.

Dr. Nikolayev cautioned that the hunger treatment should be administered only under carefully controlled conditions. The patient and his relatives must approve the procedure and the patient is thoroughly examined before the treatment starts. [3]

Each fast supervised by Dr. Nikolayev usually undergoes through five major stages…

  1. Food Deprivation – Eating Cessation – The First 2-3 Days

During this first initial stage, the patient is being given a solution of MgSO4 (magnesium sulfate, otherwise known as Epsom salt) to trigger complete bowel discharge. It does not specify how much of it, but from what I’ve seen on the internets, folks dilute 1 tbsp into a glass of water to obtain the desired laxative-like effects. The bitter after-taste is usually masked with a sip of juice. For this purpose, I’d go for lemon water.

In the initial phase, the patient is at risk of being disturbed by any reference to food, whether it’s visual, olfactory, or even a mere discussion about food. Any perception of food triggers salivary effects, sometimes even stomach cramps. Sleep is reduced and superficial, patients are irritable and may exert exacerbation of their symptoms. Weight loss is between 800 grams to 1 kg per day, blood pressure remains stable, while the cardiac rhythm may be easily intensified and irregular. [1]

This initial increased weight loss may be due to glycogen depletion and water loss.

  1. Acidosis Phase

Between the third and fifth days of fasting, food stops causing any stimulation to the patient. There are occasional headaches, sensations of dizziness – especially with the sudden change of body position (i.e. waking up or going from sitting to standing) -, nausea, and a generalized feeling of weakness. I assume this happens as the body is learning to rely on its on adipose tissue as the primary source of fuel.

The tongue is usually coated with a white thin layer. Blood sugar may decrease to 65% of its initial level. The feeling of nausea is due to the increased blood acidity. In reality, as the body adapts to the lack of food intake it starts burning its own fat, and the incomplete oxidation may result in products that increase acidity. [1]

I suspect this is the case for folks entering a fast from a higher carbohydrate diet background, a situation in which the body is not accustomed to predominantly using fat – but glucose – for energy.

Not surprising, these Russian doctors stress on increasing water intake, as well as on exercising !! three hours a day. Say what?! This would be considered recklessness compared to your conventional ‘rest, stay calm and peaceful’ fasting advice.

Their rationale for such an active routine is that it helps the body to breathe, ventilate, and sweat, all of which helps it activate organs engaged in eliminating toxins from the body (skin, kidneys, bowels, liver, etc). They also used daily enemas for this purpose.

  1. Compensation and Balance

During the fourth and seventh day, the body suddenly regains balance and the overall status of the patient is radically altered. With the feeling of weakness gone, the patient feels strong and motivated, his mood is improved. After the tenth day, weight loss stabilizes at 200g/day, the white tongue coating clears and the tongue regains its pinkish color. Patients who are catatonic experience a decrease of this state and their negative feelings begin to disappear. For those with auditory hallucinations, the inner voices tend to lose intensity. [1]

I’d like to emphasize that this simplistic picture is characteristic of that moment in time, the 60s and the 70s. Every human being is unique. While there may be many general aspects shared between us and while we are 99% identical from a genetic standpoint, the 1% is what makes us different. This difference can and will most likely results in different responses to therapeutic fasting.

So, I’d suggest you take these reports with the adequate grain of salt that they deserve.

  1. Breaking the Fast – Reinitiating Eating

After a few more days, the patient passes the crises and gains a feeling of euphoria. The patient’s symptoms begin to disappear and he feels very good, until the stored energy source is consumed. This occurs after about 30 days, the doctor said. By that time, the patient’s tongue is clean, his skin color is a healthy pink, bad breath disappears and he develops a “wolf’s appetite.” [3]

I think that the duration of a fast depends on the amount of bodyfat the patient has. We know from medical literature of fasts extending to 382 days. The ‘rule’ is that the fast should be ended, when bodyfat becomes depleted (usually around 3%). This coincides with the wolf appetite mentioned by the doctor.

Hunger is the least of problems during prolonged water fasting. It goes away after glycogen is depleted and your body starts to efficiently burn fat. Hunger, the real one, comes back when your bodyfat is very low and energy cannot be efficiently drawn from fat; this is when muscle catabolism starts increasing. This is the point of no return – the point where the prolongation of fasting turns from safe to life-threatening.

However, the body has its own mechanisms to prevent this to occur. This is when NPY (neuropeptide Y) secretion increases significantly, allowing the subject to develop real ravenous hunger. And as I’ve said it so many times, folks complain about starvation when they have not eaten for a couple of hours. That’s not real hunger. The real one happens when bodyfat is extremely low.

Now, let’s see how Dr. Nikolayev recommends reinitiating alimentation:

Food is reintroduced gradually. First, he is given diluted fruit juices, then whole juices and grated fruit mixed with yogurt. These are followed by cooked vegetables and boiled cereals. Near the 40th day, normal eating is resumed. The doctor said the hunger treatment gives the entire nervous system and the brain a rest. The body is cleaned of poisons and the tissues and glands renovated. [3]

This is the general approach to refeeding. It’s the strategy that has been followed by many clinics of therapeutic fasting. However, I’d assume that to optimize nutrient intake, it may be better to replace fruit juices with vegetable juices. Vegetables are more nutritious than fruits. Further on, I’d focus on the consumption of cooked vegetables and yoghurt. I wouldn’t consume cereals. Water intake should be emphasized as well.

  1. Normal Alimentation

*The fourth to the sixth day of realimentation (after breaking the fast) is when the appetite of the patient may be significantly increased. This is when, at his request, he may be provided with more fruits, bread, and plenty of vegetables. The patient may start consuming meat after the 7th day – however, this should be avoided as much as possible…

If the fasting cure was successful, the pathologic disorders of the patient have gone. Their blood pressure and the glucose levels stabilize at their initial values. The greedy appetite and the increased mood usually last for 2-3 weeks after which they resume to normal. [1]*

To note that Dr. Nikolayev was a vegetarian; hence his recommendations centered on low meat consumption.

Source: http://cristivlad.com/the-five-stages-of-fasting-dr-nikolayev-russian-case-studies/


100 days of fasting
(Allie) #9

This is more fat than I was even aiming for when I was first keto and tracking everything!


(Bunny) #10

How do I Fast with Coconut Oil?

STEP 1

Purchase virgin coconut oil. Virgin coconut oil is richer in nutrients than the refined version, which is bleached and deodorized. Refining is used mostly for cosmetic reasons, as all coconut oil is filtered from impurities and virgin coconut oil still contains all its valuable nutrients, which will be needed for the fast.

STEP 2

Take 2 tbsp. of virgin coconut oil every two hours or so. The maximum amount taken should not exceed 14 tbsp. within a given day. The dosage is spaced because taking larger doses may upset stomach and cause nausea. Take the last dose about three hours before bed, as coconut oil boosts energy levels and may prevent one from sleeping. Fresh squeezed lemon juice mixed with water and a little sea salt can be drank during the day to aid in the cleansing process, along with plenty of water. Four oz. of fresh coconut meat a day are also allowed while on the fast. The meat is rich in fiber and sustains good bacteria, aiding in the cleanse. Feeding the body in this way provides energy and calories while starving candida, yeast and fungus while the oils diuretic effects along with the coconut meat and lemon juice provide powerful cleansing of the upper and lower intestines. The sustenance allows the body to go days without eating anything but the four items listed, purging the body of toxins in the process.

STEP 3

Follow this regimen for three to seven days. Fasting longer than seven days is not advised without the green light from a doctor, so seek professional advise before attempting to fast more than seven days. Several three-day fasts that are spaced out are another option.

THINGS YOU’LL NEED

Virgin coconut oil
Fresh lemon juice
Water
Sea salt
Coconut meat (optional)


(Lonnie Hedley) #11

When I participated in the January 2018 Zornfast, I did 108 hours. Coffee, black, the first two mornings, then only water the rest of the time. I lost 7lbs over the 108 hours then gained back about 5lbs when I started eating again. I’ve since lost a couple of those gained lbs. Because of that I feel that the effect fasting has on my metabolism is short and my body adjust back to normal fairly easily.

For reference I would say I’m extremely lean. 6’, 140lbs (give or take daily fluctuation).

Long story short, I agree with your analysis.


#12

@atomicspacebunny Excellent summary, thank you for taking the time to post this.