Very interesting N=1 trying to test that Sat Fat causes weight loss

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #83

Use a blender. You’ll like it. I make what I call ‘keto coffee’ which is a mix of fats and proteins to my macros. So it’s not a ‘fat bomb’.

#84

Ooooh! Thanks for that!

(Windmill Tilter) #85

Oops. So I did. Sorry about that!

Yup. Mea culpa… :slight_smile:

(PJ) #86

So imagine me, I used to weigh ~560. My current base weight (if I’m not carbing-up) is about 340 (333 on 11/20 but I am still dropping carb weight from my standard off-keto six weeks end of year). I’m 5’6" and although my whole skeletal system even is larger from carrying 300+# for 20 years, let’s just say that’s considerably more fat than LBM so my BF% is insane.

When I was a kid we mostly lived on heavily breaded fried chicken in corn oil, with mashed potatoes with lots of margarine melted in, and a heavy gravy of flour and the frying-chicken oil remains, either corn or peas, some kind of white flour rolls usually, glass of milk, and some small dessert usually icecream. My stepmom was doing everything ‘right’. In 1977 that was a good home cooked meal. I am pretty sure that my current bodyfat is a massive amount of PUFA.

Anything, ANYTHING that could potentially get some of it out of me or, even if I ended up with the same quantity of fat, that shifted the ratio slightly – would be awesome.

He also noted that one study showed that the lower the % of satfat in someone’s body stores, the lower their O2 processing (metabolism).

Couple of points in there seem like the-universe-of-unfair to existingly-fat-people, but it is what it is.

I have always wondered how the body chooses WHICH fat cells to empty. Some are PUFA, or MUFA, or SFA, or a blend. Some have all kinds of other things stuffed into them (minerals, toxins, whatever). Does the liver, orchestrating all this, know them? “Yeah, tell Harry to send 17 from his warehouse, and 3 from John’s.” (I do archetype work. My body inside really is alive with identities to me. ;-))

I mean it would be great if there was a way to shift the %.

Does anyone know if there’s ever been a look at such a question?

Do we have any idea yet if the body preferentially stores certain fat types, or stores them in a certain sequence?

(PJ) #87

Thanks.I do have a bullet cup on my ninja. I don’t like putting hot stuff in it because it is a completely closed environment though. And I’m too lazy to want to have to wash the blender! In any case the cocoa butter with some cocoa – and I added some heavy cream and some unsweetened vanilla almond milk just to lighten it up a bit, and some sweetener – was really the bomb. I think I’m going to take that up.

All things considered, why NOT use cocoa butter instead of butter or coconut oil, in coffee, if getting ‘fat’ and something that is satiating is the goal of doing it? I think I like the idea.

Of course, it has limits, since I’m still unemployed. I have 1.5 bags of the stuff after which I’m out until I find a job. Assuming I’m not living on the sidewalk by then, sigh… :roll_eyes:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #88

I use a 1 liter mason jar on my Proctor Silex countertop blender to make my coffee each morning. It works very well. I first tried a smaller blender with a plastic cup but didn’t like the plastic. The hot coffee stained it badly. It also cracked after a month or so.

#89

Thank you for this, PJ!!!

I think I’ve read all these, but I’m never quite sure I haven’t skipped something, and when I want to re-read a certain part I usually have trouble finding it again.

(Windmill Tilter) #90

Having given this all a good think, it seems like the Croissant Diet has failed to address the single most important question in all of weight loss: What are the effects on Resting Metabolic Rate???

Without an answer to that question, it doesn’t seem like a viable weight loss strategy. If stearic acid promotes weight loss through increased satiety, that’s lovely. If it helps to ensure that new fat is more accessible for oxidation in the future, that a great bonus. Neither of those things have anything to do with long term weight loss though.

The most important thing in weight loss is minimizing the down regulation of RMR. Otherwise the weight comes right back. Has this question been addressed at least in theory?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #91

Don’t know squat about the Croissant Diet and admit that it does not appeal to me if it means eating croissants! My understanding is that saturated fats boost metabolic rate, MUFAs and especially PUFAs not so much. To me, this helps explain why people on keto who up their SFA intake lose weight even when they don’t restrict calories much or at all. It’s not magic, of course, and the effect can be easily overwhelmed by other factors. My own experience is that by keeping SFA as my primary fat intake, I maintain easily on 2800 calories per day (2300+ of those are fats, mostly SFA) and lose weight easily by restricting calories even by a relatively small amount (couple hundred +/- per day). On the other hand, as long as my SFA intake remains high I find it difficult to gain weight. I am 74 years old.

(Windmill Tilter) #92

I’ve never seen enough evidence to be convinced that it was true, but it’s certainly possible. It didn’t seem to be true in this case study. The SF folks gained the same amount of fat as the PUFA subjects.

Here is an interesting over-feeding study where they overfed subjects either 750kcal/day PUFA or 750/kcal/day Saturated Fat (palmitic oil) in the form of a super high calorie muffin. They both gained the same amount of fat, but the PUFA group gained more muscle, and SF gained more visceral fat. Basically sounds like a beta test of the Croissant Diet! Thoughts?

Abstract

Excess ectopic fat storage is linked to type 2 diabetes. The importance of dietary fat composition for ectopic fat storage in humans is unknown. We investigated liver fat accumulation and body composition during overfeeding saturated fatty acids (SFAs) or polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs). LIPOGAIN was a double-blind, parallel-group, randomized trial. Thirty-nine young and normal-weight individuals were overfed muffins high in SFAs (palm oil) or n-6 PUFAs (sunflower oil) for 7 weeks. Liver fat, visceral adipose tissue (VAT), abdominal subcutaneous adipose tissue (SAT), total adipose tissue, pancreatic fat, and lean tissue were assessed by magnetic resonance imaging. Transcriptomics were performed in SAT. Both groups gained similar weight. SFAs, however, markedly increased liver fat compared with PUFAs and caused a twofold larger increase in VAT than PUFAs. Conversely, PUFAs caused a nearly threefold larger increase in lean tissue than SFAs. Increase in liver fat directly correlated with changes in plasma SFAs and inversely with PUFAs. Genes involved in regulating energy dissipation, insulin resistance, body composition, and fat-cell differentiation in SAT were differentially regulated between diets, and associated with increased PUFAs in SAT. In conclusion, overeating SFAs promotes hepatic and visceral fat storage, whereas excess energy from PUFAs may instead promote lean tissue in healthy humans.

(PJ) #93

With one exception, though: he noted that SUGAR seems to cancel this trigger/effect. His croissant pointedly does not have sugar. So if that study was testing fats, great, but if the remainder of what was in their food intake might be interfering, then it’s not the same. I’m guessing their super-high-caloric-muffin had sugar.

It’s like all the research testing ‘low-carb’ that put the carbs just above the point where Atkins insisted they had to be for ketogenic effects.

Or the mouse studies that stuffed them with soybean or transfats and corn and this was used to explain why humans eating steak would kill us all.

There are things which can be done in research which are true and valid – but there’s so often elements in the study, which by accident or design, completely throw the result.

Or sometimes, they just don’t know to control for that variable. This idea about SFA > ROS > CoQ bottleneck > IR is pretty new and not at all common even in the lowcarb world itself.

(Windmill Tilter) #94

That’s where it gets a bit tricky. Marshall is fairly noncommittal on how much sugar is ok. Remember, the whole point of this diet is to show that if we eat the way the French did in 1970, we too would be thin like them. This is from his blog where he shows the breakdown of what the average Frenchman was eating in 1970. The Frenchman his diet is intending to emulate was eating 387kcal of sugar; that’s 97g of sugar a day!:

WTgh1JX.png773×642

So how much sugar was in the muffin? The study tells that the calories of the muffin was 750kcal, that 44% of the Kcals was from carbs, and that the sugar/starch ratio was .45/.55. From that we know that the muffin contained 37.5g of sugar. That sounds like a “moderate” amount of sugar relative to the average 1970 Frenchman we’re meant to be emulating. It’s roughly 1/3rd of his daily allotment.

In his diet specification page, he says this of sugar:

Can you have sugar on the Croissant Diet? Well, I’m not a huge fan of sugar but then I’m not a huge fan of white flour either. I can say that the French do and did. Probably a little is fine. I ate ice cream several times on the diet. Sugar increases your level of SCD1, which leads to your fat becoming unsaturated, which is counter to the point of the diet, so definitely keep it to a minimum.

None of this is to say that I’m not fascinated by the ROS theory of obesity, or that I don’t think it has some merit. I’m just pointing out that a muffin made with a .48 F/N ratio like we’re meant to do didn’t appear to have any material protective effect against fat gain.

I like the ROS theory, but the croissant diet… not so much .

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #95

I’m late to the party, I know…

The fat composition changes depending on what is fed to the animals. I wonder how much stearic acid lard really has. I have been going for “grass fed butter” recently as it seems to be the safest bet to contain little omega-6.

Has anyone found a better source of stearic acid than cocoa butter? Hydrogenated is a no-go.

I guess I could try cb for my coffee, and do a dessert like Taryns Fudge. I do find that I’m less satiated after going more carnivory, I usually get hungry again after maybe 6 hours, despite trying to add a lot of fat. Perhaps some cocoa butter will do the trick.

(bulkbiker) #96

I also wonder if it varies between breeds… do some cows have different ratios to others…?
Should we care more about what the breed of cow was than what it was fed?

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #97

They do, 100%. There are different beef types, some cattle develops more fat than others (both grass fed), and I’d expect the fat composition to be different too. Gary Taubes has an example in his book. I’m not a gourmet enough to distinguish the different beef breeds :slight_smile:

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #98

Now, I take some issue with the ROS theory in that it mixes things that shouldn’t be mixed. It’s obviously an oversimplification (IMO) that oxidative stress is good – there are numerous connections between low antioxidants and all kinds of chronic diseases, and the diseases get better by antioxidant supplementation. Also ketogenic diets usually decrease oxidative stress as a rule, which is connected to the various therapeuthic uses.

The thing is, ROS have 2 functions: They are used for signaling, but also our immune system uses ROS as means of chemical warfare against intruders, and the immune system can be activated falsely (“autoimmune disease”), creating too much ROS and therefore chronic inflammation.

I think the difference here is not that more ROS is created, but rather that we have them in the right metabolic place. Just as local insulin resistance (as described here) is a good thing if it prevents fat from being stored (creating more satiety), but insulin resistance itself is not.

(PJ) #99

Yes… I didn’t have the impression that he meant we should avoid any antioxidants for the body in general, merely that a research study clearly showed that a powerful antioxidant did negate the ROS signalling for the fat cells. So maybe a massive dose of them while eating your high in saturated fat meal might be defeating the point. He does mention different uses for ROS. I’m wondering if you’re saying he’s ignoring everything except this signalling molecule use or if I’m just reading that into your post.

Well yes, I think the point of his blog is to “vastly simplify” Peter’s “brain-crunchingly-complex” protons theory + try and apply it to the real world of eating and look at what other indicators in research or life might support or negate the theory.

As for insulin resistance, I feel like we are lacking appropriate words for what might be a slightly different function with a similar result.

As a silly analogy, let us say I run a warehouse. I stand at the warehouse door when trucks arrive with materials. When my warehouse is full I tell the drivers, “No more.”

But the drivers and me might dispute this a little when I say no. If there are plenty of other warehouses open in our neighborhood, no big deal, he just goes to another. But if there’s not, then it’s a contest.

As politics get worse (like when insulin gets higher and higher), eventually we have a wrestling match in the big warehouse rolling doorway. Can’t stuff it in here! Can too! Can not! and one of us wins – if he has more power (muscle / insulin), he wins. He unloads the truck and stuffs it in. But of course the fuller it gets in my warehouse the harder it is for him to do that even if he wins.

That is my analogy of body-wide or traditional “insulin resistance.” The location is over-full, the insulin raises to try and “push harder” to get fat in the cell.

But then there is the ROS as signalling molecule.

My analogy for a signalling molecule would be more like:

I don’t need any more goods right now, so I flip this switch, which closes the door and lights up the CLOSED sign outside. Or, “…so I set the meter for ‘up to 1/4 ton only’ so delivery is limited to that, then door closes and CLOSED sign lights up.”

The first is like a ‘manual’ resistance caused solely by over-stuffing the genetically-set capacity of the adipose cell. The second is like a built-in “setting.”

I grant that both seem to have the end-result of “the fat cannot store in that cell beyond a certain point.”

But I think they are wholly different functions which simply have the same result. But because they are different, it implies different things about their nature and desirability when we refer to them.

So using the same term (insulin resistance) for both routes of getting there, I think itself may cause some confusion.

(Central Florida Bob ) #100

I was thinking of buying a pound or two of cocoa butter pieces, as I’ve been reading this thread pretty much since the first post. It’s interesting, but I can see all sorts of confounding variables at play here and I was wondering about anybody’s preliminary results.

I see several talking about satiety going up - or skyrocketing. I haven’t seen any numbers on anything. No indication of daily consumption of cocoa butter; an ounce or a pound, no indication of weight loss, nothing. Considering I have an almost perfect record of any “magical food or supplement” I buy having zero effect, it makes me less likely to try.

Does anyone care to put some results down for the interest of the rest of us? In particular, things like it took eating cocoa butter for a month before I saw a benefit (and what that was). So that I know whether to buy one pound or two.

And @RightNOW PJ, your little cocoa butter kisses or the chocolate/cocoa butter “Reese’s” look great!

(Kristen Ann) #101

In terms of weight loss, I can’t help you. I was losing weight before I was eating cocoa butter and beef fat, and am still losing weight. I have been roughly tracking how much stearic acid I consume in a day and it’s usually around 20g and 20-40% of total sat fat for the day.

(PJ) #102

Good point Bob. I only fell into all this last week. I’ve added the “Hot Keto Mocha” as I call it to my day but I seldom have a lot of appetite anyway. And I’m huge so if I’m keto I lose weight anyway. And I’m coming back into keto after my annual holiday time off so I’m losing weight via water at crazy rate anyway. So there is pretty much no way I can personally test whether beef tallow and cocoa butter intake somehow makes you leaner and less hungry, I can just add those to my diet since there’s nothing suggesting it would do harm, and hope it does good.

My friend is not keto and she’s had some issues with food addictions. In the four days she’s been doing it, she told me in email that if nothing else, it seems to have greatly reduced her food cravings that have been giving her such trouble, specifically for sugar. Of course, who knows if eating other kinds of fats as a sudden focus might have had the same result. (Plus of course I have no numbers.)

In the morning, when I throw a little fluted cup of cocoa butter + cocoa into my coffee, a little cream and almond milk and sweetener, and drink my Hot Keto Mocha, I have no desire to eat until 6pm. Although I admit I don’t normally have a strong appetite, every day up till I started that, I started wandering into the kitchen for noshing about 1:30-2pm. But it’s only been a few days of this, so I don’t know that that’s long enough to see any real pattern.

I only just stumbled on this stuff, haven’t had much time yet. Hoping to get the beef tallow delivered any day. I have heard it has a distinct taste. I thought maybe I would take up more stir fry and could use it for that, since it has other strong flavors, and BT has a high smoke point.