Very Disappointed

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #41

And the limit is actually a tad higher, I believe. Richard says 3.1 g/kg, if memory serves. So as you say, it’s difficult to reach and exceed it.

I suspect that there’s a point of diminishing returns that will be reached. Someone will have the guts to say “that’s not working for me,” or someone else will get so much protein that ammonia toxicity will start to be a problem, and then people will come to their senses. This is the opposite end of the pendulum arc; it wasn’t all that long ago that Ron Rosedale was telling us not to eat more than 0.6 g/kg LBM, so as to avoid activating mTOR. I suspect that, just as our understanding of mTOR has become more nuanced, our understanding of how the body handles protein will grow, as well.

(Michael) #42

As Bob corrected, 3.3 (even) times 65 kg = 214.5 g of protein. I weigh 65kg, and recently attempting carnivore, I bet I ate that much some days (too much imho)

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #43

That is thirty ounces of meat. Most carnivores eat about that much a day, I understand. Dr. Shawn Baker eats around 64 ounces of meat a day, but as he said in a conversation for which I happened to be present, “I would never recommend that anyone else eat that much; I’m a freak.” How his body handles the amino acid load, I have no idea. I’d love to hear him and Richard discuss their ideas about it, however.

(Richard Morris) #44

Yes.

Let’s say for the sake of argument (and simple math) you have 100kgs of lean mass, and you eat 321g of protein (3.21 g/kg lean mass). That’s roughly a 1 kg steak. Let’s also assume you absorb 100% of the protein in the steak. Let’s also stipulate you aren’t building or losing lean mass. You will use it all for energy and the ammonia as a waste product is all converted into urea and you urinate that out.

OK that is our baseline, a person on the limit. Now let’s say next day you eat a 2kg steak. Now you have 642g of protein. You turn that into ammonia. I’d do the molar math to work out the exact weight of ammonia but it’s not necessary - let’s say you have 2 units of ammonia (in units f daily safe disposal). But you can only turn half of that into urea and pee out. So what happens is that half of it stays in circulation, and you can sweat a little out, or it can outgas from the surface of your lungs, but most of it is circulating.

Let’s say you have an identical twin, and you have both just done this double protein day, and both of you have 1 unit of ammonia in circulation. Now let’s say you have a day without protein, and your twin has another high protein day.

You can still convert 1 unit of ammonia into urea on that third day and pee it out - so you are back to starting state again. Your twin starts with 1 unit, and adds to it 2 more (another 2kg steak). Now he has 3 units and he can only dispose of 1 - so by day 4 he is starting with 2 units.

Of course this is all ridiculous amounts of steak going into ridiculously large people (Even at his largest Arnold Schwarzenegger was under 100kg of lean mass ) playing dietary jackass and seeing who can smell more like cat pee. Within about 4 days (if Steffanson’s logs are reliable) one of the twins will be suffering insatiable fat hunger and the early symptoms of rabbit starvation.

The reality is that most people (assuming 100kg lean mass again) after a day of eating a 1.25 kg steak (and just being over their safe limit) will self correct the next day and not eat more than a 750g steak, unless they are playing dietary jackass.

(Richard Morris) #45

Proteins are made up of a combination of 20 basic building blocks called amino acids. A protein like collagen (the most abundant in our bodies) for example contains long threads containing 32.9% glycine, 12.6% proline, and lesser amounts of other amino acids including 2.4% leucine, 1.1% isoleucine, 10.9% alanine, 4.9% arginine - the 4 that our pancreases specifically sample as a stimulus to produce insulin.

https://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/55/supplement_2/s39#:~:text=Four%20amino%20acids%20were%20found,cells%20(13%2C14).

So when we eat protein we bath it in hydrochloric acid to break it down and proteases which are enzymes that slice it up into it’s constituent amino acids. Those amino acids are absorbed into our blood supply and the pancreas samples them to work out how much insulin to produce.

It’s not so much that these 4 amino acids are waste products, they are anything but. They are very useful building blocks to make new proteins, like more collagen and more enzymes for breaking down proteins and doing millions of other jobs important for life. Most proteins have some of these, and it would be unreasonably complex for the pancreas to know how to taste your blood for all 20 amino acids … so those 4 are a proxy for “protein in the diet let’s make a little more insulin”.

And in most healthy humans glucose provokes 4x the insulin response than any of these amino acids. In those of us who are metabolically deranged it can be almost 1:1.

Hope that helps

(Richard Morris) #46

wow. That is a very unusual case. Very interesting academically, but I’m sure you’re over it being interesting. I’m sorry for the challenge that you and she have to deal with, but it sounds like you are on top of it and it’s a relatively simple treatment.

I don’t know how well a ketogenic diet would work given that we rely on the liver making glucose and ketones to supply the brain and in her case the distance between the two organs with respect to circulation would be longer than in most humans with a lot more possible consumers of both in between.

#47

This might be a bit offtopic, but i see many buying collagen powders, to prevent sagging skin in a weightloss-process. I dont want sagging skin. The powders are really expencive, and I feel it might be a hoax? But i dont want to miss out, so im torn. I eat sufficient protein, and was hoping my body would then supply the needed collagen without having to buy powders? What do you think?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #48

@Shatz Shop around. Gelatin is a viable alternative and usually cheaper than hydrolyzed collagen. Both contain the same proteins. Or buy powdered bone broth. But if you want to get it cheap then make bone broth from beef and/or chicken bones. Eat fish with the skin/scales. Eat more eggs - the whites especially.

#49

That is some great options I didnt know about. But wont all of the options still be broken down into seperate amino acids, and then the body must build it into collagen anyway?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #50

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: Yes, when you eat collagen it must be broken down in order to be absorbed like all proteins. So eating collagen doesn’t directly increase your collagen levels. Instead, it supplies the building blocks to create your own collagen. Supposedly, however, the processing required to create collagen, either as a broth or powder, makes it more easily and readily absorbed. Plus, it already contains the specific amino acids your body needs to make its own collagen.

(Michael) #51

She is an extreme case where she actually has two pieces to her liver over an inch apart, a larger functioning and a smaller who the f*3k knows if it works piece. She is the worst case of this I have read about, who did not die before age 5 (she almost did at age 1 because each organ test came back fine, but her system does not work as a whole - 20 years ago I think she was the 6th identified case, since there have been hundreds more cases identified, mostly less severe). Her original prognosis was maybe to live until 6, but she is 20 now. Here is the condition in general:

You are good, most people do not understand the complications, her circulation cause a whole mess of problems when anaylzing what is going on. Her blood can travel around the body in multiple pathways such that some blood may not get filtered by her livers for a comparatively long time, while some blood gets filtered more frequently on top of what the unfiltered blood does to her brain and organs. Unfortunately she has a host of issues, physical and mental, but I think a high fat diet should be her diet (with low/moderate protein). She is an immature 20, so someone else is going to have to tell her though, since if I do (her dad), she will never even try it :disappointed_relieved:. Of course, not sure if it would work well for her functionally anyway, but I think safer than mostly carbs with a stressed, deformed and small liver.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #52

Maybe exogenous ketones would help. I’m currently experimenting with ketone ‘salts’ which don’t seem to do much of anything. So you’d probably have to try esters.

(Anita Evans) #53

I sit totally opposite to this statement, very happy to hear the Boolsheet segment, some of Richards best summaries of complex situations expressed with easy to understand anallergies. Keep it up!!

(Rich Hopkins) #54

@richard, I think you may have misunderstood me, and yes, I should have been clearer. It isn’t the content of the segment that I think is childish. It’s the name of it, and the childish banter around that name. Something I would expect from ten year olds* who just said their first swear words.

I want my wife to listen to the podcast with me. She’ll just plain stop when she hears that. I understand that you want to have fun, and thus far you’ve made it a fun podcast to listen to. But there really are people who won’t listen if it contains this kind of stuff, and I thought the goal was to get the information to as many as possible.

*I’m in your age range, so kind of disconnected from ten year olds, so maybe kids are swearing younger than ten now

(Polly) #55

OK. I am probably of an older generation but where is the swearing? I have never heard of a Boolsheet and assumed it was a reference to boolean algebra which deals with logical progressions and have no idea what could be offensive.

Please enlighten me.

So now I read this back and see possibly Bullshit? If anyone is offended by that they must have had a very sheltered existence.

(Richard Morris) #56

You are not wrong. And I take your point about the language turning off part of the audience. We have changed some of the language because people shouldn’t have to censor the podcast if they are say listening in the car to it with their kids in the car.

Normally I shouldn’t need to descend to juvenile word play to make my point. Personally I’m not a particular fan of the morning zoo radio format - but it gets attention. I’m trying to hold up some really silly claims to ridicule. And hoping that making it attention grabbing sticks a pin in some ridiculous thought bubbles.

For example the idea that if people on a 1500 kCal diet lose weight then a 800 kCal/diet must on it’s face be twice as “good”. This is being touted on social media by formerly ketogenic experts - some of whom we have featured on our show when they were serious.

For the record the picture below shows people in a 32 week 1500 kCal/dat diet study losing weight. One of them actually chopped several fingers off his hand with a hatchet to get out of this study (Ancel Key’s Minnesota starvation study.

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This particular foolishness is going to become a topic in an upcoming segment. I can describe my opinion of this without making juvenile jokes - I’m afraid that it wouldn’t be as potent. But I will try to make the language less abrasive.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #57

I just came here after many months away. Some days I’m eating higher P:E but given recent stress I’m eating whatever I damn well feel like. Still keto for the most part. I do eat refried beans when I eat Mexican out. A few peanuts but meat, fish, cheese, eggs, yogurt. I eat salads, broccoli, asapagus, and very infrequently spegittii squash. But just a small amount. I think l’m pretty metabolically flexible.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #58

Sorry this sounded ageessive. It was with me self. After of 3 years plus of getting tighter on keto I needed to loosen up. Still doing good with keto and enjoying my flexibility.

(KCKO, KCFO) #59

Welcome back, Eric.

Lots of us have had to deal with stress eating for a while now. We feel your pain.

#60

wow that was one scary post to read.
thank heavens you knew her true medical issues and intervened before ‘the experts’ damn near took her down…just wow…can’t imagine what you went thru on that one! More power to the parents!