I thought you guys typically cleaned up your messes right away. 
One of the wonderful habits from your original 2KD podcast series (before your hiatus) was opening each episode with a “what did we get wrong” corrections segment. This was a superb practice.
Perhaps any residual “what you got wrong” remnants must be arising from subsequent developments in science?
I think it’s only on the podcast, with no link. Here’s a link to one I listened to:
The link about energy expenditure is related to the boolsheet (or whatever it’s called).
I found it here:
@richard Why don’t you guys include link(s) on the forum “Top” page to your stuff?
We suck at marketing - yeah we should do that
That’s the blog where we put stuff that isn’t in a podcast, The podcast link is https://2ketodudes.com/
indeed. There are a lot of claims for ketogenic diets that are just speculation, will they cure cancer? No one knows. A plausible mechanism exists but a study to test that hypothesis is virtually impossible to do. But will they feed it as much as a high carb diet? I’d have to say it’s unlikely.
I can relate 
We try to respond to pushback as soon as it happens. Usually that means we say something in a podcast, a listener corrects us ( or I relisten and correct myself) and then we put a “what we got wrong last week” at the top of the next show.
That also happens.
That is quite possible. Though experiments refining the bounding conditions of not enough and too much protein haven’t changed. Humans still appear to need at least between 0.3 and 1.0 g/kg of ¾ body weight. Above 3.21g/kg of lean mass appear to saturate our ability to deal with the toxic byproducts.
What I can tell you is we won’t be chasing an audience who need their belief in protein reinforced just to increase our relevancy as say The Diet Doctor appears to have.
Andreas has tweeted there is no practical upper limit of protein and Ted gave him a twitter fist bump … problem is that both MDs are incorrect about the biochemistry. Above 3 g/kg of lean mass (and we can argue how much more than 3) and you saturate your ability to dispose of it as urea and accumulate ammonia and eventually that causes the disease Mal de Caribou (rabbit starvation).
And yes all your points about P:E are correct, grams of fuel are not calories - at best they are potential calories, carbs and fat are not equivalent fuels, protein is also a caloric fuel making P vs E a false dichotomy.
I have a lot of other criticisms about high protein diets including the fact that if you go down the cereal aisle in 2020 you will find as many boxes claiming to be high protein as you would find high fibre in the 2000s, low fat in the 1980s and all the vitamins and minerals and energy a growing body needs in the 1960s - with not much changing in the contents. In other words it’s 100% marketing.
I would likely make more money by switching to a high protein diet - I don’t need more money, I need less diabetics.
But the biggest problem I have is similar to the one that Stephen Phinney has, namely that in 1977 there was a popular protein sparing modified fasts that was ketogenic called the liquid protein diet that killed 60 people (18 with no previous underlying health problem) some of them in as little as 2 months of eating only hydrolysed collagen (ie: jello). Dr Phinneys problem is that it sidelined his career and that of any researcher investigating ketogenic diets for 30 years until his collaboration with Jeff Volek resurrected it. My problem is if that happens again type 2 diabetics will not be able to get any GP or Diabetic educator to supervise them using a diet that may be our only hope. [I just realized I had already told that story in this thread - probably old age catching up with me and I’m telling the same damn stories over and over]
Where I plan to call out my own boolsheet is telling everyone they need between 1 and 1.5g/kg lean mass. Clearly some people get better results with more, and some can eat more than 20g of carbs a day too. But in type 2 diabetics for whom the byproducts of protein digestion are almost as insulinogenic as those of carbohydrates, 1-1.5g appears to be a safe and effective range to reverse your disease. YMMV
Very top level, buit do you think that if you remain in ketosis (measured) you are protected from the ‘byproducts of protein digestion’?
Thanks
Almost certainly.
The byproducts in question are one of 4 amino acids ( leucine, isoleucine, alanine, and arginine) that potentiate insulin secretion from the pancreas.
Some people make a lot of insulin from the same stimulus, some make less. How much depends on genetics and environment - the same things that cause type 2 diabetes.
Downstream insulin inhibits fat transport into your mitochondria and not having excess fatty acids to burn for energy inhibits production of ketones.
So what we can infer is if you have ketones after eating specific foods then your pancreas didn’t make too much insulin sufficient to inhibit using fatty acid for energy.
Gosh, interesting. So when on STEM Talk they suggest leucine high foods for muscle growth, they’re saying that the insulin in that case aids that growth. So that works fine if you’re metabolically healthy but not so good if not? And once insulin resistant, muscle growth will be really difficult.
I might try a ‘protein tolerance test’ using the ketone meter to see if anything sensible comes out…or whether I just end up with ‘meat sweats’…
Leucine is one of the branched-chain amino acids (the other two are iso-leucine and valine), all of which are needed for muscle growth.
I’ve never heard that insulin is necessary for transporting the BCAA’s into cells; I always thought it was that they were incorporated into whatever proteins were required for building new tissue. On the other hand, I never studied any of this in great detail, so don’t go by me. I do know that insulin, IGF, and HGH all have roles to play in tissue growth, but I couldn’t tell you how they interact.
Apparently, the BCAA’s, while needed for tissue growth, are also damaging to the liver if over-consumed (at least, according to Dr. Robert Lustig, the anti-fructose crusader). The BCAA’s, fructose, and ethanol are all handled by the same metabolic pathway in the liver, which is easily overloaded. So while the BCAA’s are among the nine essential amino acids, they are apparently not needed in great quantity, except during body-building efforts.
Thanks, Paul. Even more nuance - if you have a glass of wine with your steak it’ll blunt any tissue repair!
I wish I’d started looking at this forum years ago…
I’m presuming that these “upper limits” on protein consumption are not really a daily concern, but more of a longer-term daily average thing?
Would that be a reasonable assumption on my part, or just a baseless guess?
@richard can correct me, but my understanding is that the uric acid pathway has a limit on how much nitrogen it can dispose of, even over the short term. Granted, that limit is fairly high, and most people’s protein intake does not approach the level of 3.0 g/kg LBM, but it can happen. The nitrogen from deaminating amino acids has to go somewhere, after all.
Proteinuria is another way of disposing of excess amino acids. I don’t know much about how it works, but it seems to carry with it other problems.
Thanks. Just goes to further illustrate why “baseless guessing” remains my forté.
It’s mine, too. The good thing about hanging around a data-driven site such as this one is having to bring that tendency under control (more or less 
) ,
@SomeGuy @PaulL When dealing with a corrosive substance, ie in this case nitrogen/ammonia, getting it out of the system as quickly as possible is vitally important. Similarly to glucose - when it spikes from a meal, insulin spikes immediately afterwards to get it out of the blood. You don’t eat a high glucose meal and then wait for a few days for insulin to lower the BG ‘on average’. Same thing with protein. If you spike nitrogen/ammonia then it’s going to get eliminated immediately or you’re in trouble. Sure, you can absorb some degree of damage before the system collapses. But as @richard noted above, elevated nitrogen/ammonia is going to cause ‘protein poisoning’ pretty quick.
Hi Richard. I am new here, so thank you in advance for setting up this site and providing so much useful information for the rest of us. Would you be willing to explain in more detail the byproducts of protein digestion as insulinogenic or point me to some existing literature that I (hopefully) might understand upon reading.
Off topic but also related to discussion on protein, I have mentioned eariler my daughter was born with a deformed liver. In her case, after eating, all the blood from her intestines travels up to her head, BEFORE, being filtered by her liver. If she eats more than 1.0 g/kg protein per bodyweight, she very quickly has ammonia poisoning (often called Encephalopathy) when ammonia passes the blood brain barrier and interferes with her memory/thinking. The last time she encountered this was when the hospital staff did not understand what I was saying, and essentially force fed her 1.5 g/kg of bodyweight for a week. She does not remember much after the 5th day, and they claimed she was having “mental health” issues due to her erratic behaviour. I ended up having to threaten to sue to get her out of the hospital and heal her (through protein restriction) because they tried to convince me she was too sick to leave, and the only solution was for them to keep poisoning her (seriously, I was F’ing furious) until she recovered her mental faculties.
So, if LBM = fat free mass from a DEXA scan, my fat-free mass was 127 pounds a few years ago. I am much stronger than then, so let’s say 140 pounds (though I doubt it’s that high). That’s 140/2.2 = 63.6kg, so let’s say 65kg to make it easier. 3g/kg (65kg) = 420 grams protein.
I can easily get over 300g/day of protein. To add another 100+ grams, that would be tough, if there’s no resorting to powders.
But my main complaint is that many people I see – at least on Twitter – are now using higher protein, lower fat. @daddyoh is one of them (if he still comes here; he’s on Twitter, anyway), and was at a new low, if I’m not mistaken, by eating lower fat.
And I got down to 34 inch pants, eating higher protein, lower fat. (Then made the mistake of trying the croissant diet, which caused me to balloon past a lot of my 36s.)
I think the whole reliance on “macros” and eating protein could simply be dealt with by eating meat + some vegetables + maybe dairy if you can handle it (as I can). There’s really no need to say to people that you need to eat protein between X and Y grams per whatever your unit is (LBM, ideal body weight, current weight…).
Because then people come here freaking out because they’re eating too much protein or too much fat or not enough protein. And it’s realistically a challenge – if you’re eating meat with no protein powders – to eat too much protein.
Part of that is the satiety effect of protein/meat: you get to a certain point, and you don’t want more.
Are there outliers? There are always outliers. But 99.999 percent of people can eat meat, vegetables, and dairy, and not have to be concerned at all with macros, grams of protein per whatever, etc.
Hmm…looks like I made a mistake above. 3x65 = 195 g protein, which is way too low.
To provide an example, my lunch was about 1 pound top round:
138 grams of protein.
Plus one can wild sardines in water, another 20 grams of protein.
About 158 grams of protein…for lunch.
Now, I’m not sure what I’ll have for dinner. It may be pulled pork I made this weekend. This will lessen the amount of protein. But I’ll easily be at 250g+ of protein for the day.
And this is a normal day.
This pretty well describes me pre-keto, although my protein, which included meat and fish, was primarily derived from dairy, grains and legumes. And olive oil was my primary source of added fat. If asked, I could not even guesstimate my macros then, though surely a couple hundred grams or more of carbs per day. As I’ve noted several times elsewhere, eating this way caused me no particular issues until the decade of my 60’s when over the course of 10 years I slowly accumulated about 30-40 pounds of excess fat in and around my abdomen.
I would hazard the opinion that my slow but steady weight/fat gain during my 60s was indicative that my metabolism was gradually losing the battle against a detrimental, although not terrible, diet. I suspect that had I not changed course, I’d be significantly heavier than I am now and on my way to less than optimal health for my age. I think weight/fat gain is a symptom of metabolic dysfunction. Yes, we’re programmed by evolution to have a ‘cushion’ but not a a mattress.
After starting keto, I now entertain a high degree of confidence that barring some accident I will maintain optimal health, both physically and mentally. Yes, I measure/weigh everything. At first I did so to keep myself within what I thought were the ‘correct’ parameters of keto. And I think I was and remain within those parameters - for me. But I also continue simply to build up a body of data. We only expand the knowledge of what works by those of us who do it and record our results.
