Vegan Diets are the healthiest, according to new study


#61

The Inuit people’s current health problems are due to the carbs in their diet. Indigenous peoples are often poorly adapted to a diet high in carbs, and wheat or milk sensitivities are much more common than in descendants of farmers. They also seem to get candida overgrowth more easily.

I’m wondering about the fatty acids though. There should be a lot of omega-3 in fats from the sea, and Inuits used to be bleeders.


(Bacon is the new bacon) #62

Until they started eating white flour and sugar, they were extremely healthy. At least as far as the chronic diseases that plague us are concerned. Infectious disease was another story, until Alexander Fleming had his lucky accident.

I rather doubt that, since a magnesium atom is at the center of every molecule of chlorophyll. If the soil was that depleted, all our plants would be dead.


(Bunny) #63

These are my personal speculations but I could be wrong?

I think their is a problem with some Inuits is that may have eaten too much raw fat and meat (per meal in one or several sitting) actually propelling them into what is called the Arctic variant gene CPT-1a deficiency that they pass on to their children, it would not be exclusive to Inuits but also to the land animals and other humans combined living under these type of cold thermal environmental conditions and the main staple of the diet consisting primarily of raw meats and fats?

That is why some are never in ketosis because their calories from protein and fat intake exceeded what we do here on the forum to maintain a ketogenic metabolism? So what happens is you end up with what I call Arctic Diabetes (the body is making more glucose than ketones from fatty acids and protein and not leaving enough fat for ketogenesis to occur)?

The Inuit diet is not ketogenic nor is it zero carb carnivore. We are talking about raw meat and fat here hence uncooked meat and fat is not a saturated fat, it is an unsaturated fat when you eat it raw.

“…Why were the Inuit never in ketosis, despite their traditional high-fat diet? CPT-1a deficiency known as “the Arctic variant” is only found in the Arctic and it is nearly universal in the Arctic. …”

”… It causes a serious impairment in the ability to make ketones, dramatically raises the risk of developing hypoglycemia while fasting, and causes a three-fold increase in infant mortality. …” - Chris Masterjohn PhD


(Bacon is the new bacon) #64

(L. Amber O'Hearn) #65

Thanks for posting! I have to say that I found Chris Masterjohn’s hypothesis in that video, that perpetual ketosis would make people more susceptible to keto-acidosis, somewhat bizarre. I don’t know of any evidence that long-term ketosis makes people more susceptible to keto-acidosis. And as per my video, I don’t in fact think that ketosis was “selected against” as he claims.

In case someone prefers text to video, there is a journal version, here: https://jevohealth.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1101&context=journal (note they are slightly different – I cover more topics in the video, and more depth on a narrow section in the paper).

The TL;DR is that (1) The tech for measuring ketosis wouldn’t pick up ketosis in people who are keto-adapted and only in mild ketosis. At that time the researchers expect fasting levels and don’t find them. So these old measurements are inconclusive. (2) There is some evidence that the Arctic Variant “assumes” very high PUFA levels in the diet, and that in that dietary context ketosis would be less but not disrupted the way it is for people with the gene eating a SAD. (3) There is an advantage to the gene (also mentioned by Masterjohn) to do with less inhibition of malonyl-coa, which allows higher protein levels without disrupting ketosis.

Putting all those together, an overlooked possibility is that the boost in ketosis from high PUFA intake allowed a gene to take over that increased protein tolerance without disrupting ketosis.

Masterjohn does notice that the problem with the mutation, when it occurs, doesn’t just affect ketosis, but GNG (that’s because GNG is reliant on hepatic fatty acid oxidation), but he doesn’t seem to notice the contradiction here. If both ketosis and GNG are impaired and you frequently eat only protein and fat, then you are kind of screwed!


(L. Amber O'Hearn) #66

Incidentally, I noticed there was a salt subthread in here. One interesting thing I have noticed in the carnivore community is that the majority of people who go on a plant free diet eventually stop adding salt. This suggests that something about plant eating even low carb disrupts electrolyte balance and requires more sodium. High carb diets do seem to demand more sodium. I am pretty sure salt seeking (which is normally a herbivore behaviour, not a carnivore behaviour!) came with agriculture as a consequence of higher plant/grain reliance.

Yes, the Inuit consumed seal blood, but I don’t think that was somehow a salt saving grace. (Also, FYI, I think those photos are from Siberians eating reindeer. I’ve been trying to get a good source on it. Any help appreciated!)

Definitely electrolytes get disturbed during keto-adaptation, and more salt is warranted during that time. After that, I’m less sure.


(Ilana Rose) #67

Super interesting. I’ve been wondering about this very thing!


(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #68

You are correct Google Image URL:

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/uploads/default/original/3X/c/6/c61704aa6e6cf4dc508d106c0f0e87e0999824e3.jpeg

Every hit says Siberian Nenets of Yamal Region eating reindeer.


(Edith) #69

Maybe that’s why some cultures abhor salt and some prize it. If you get adequate salt from what you eat, extra salt tastes terrible. It seems like the cultures that used or drank the animal blood didn’t need extra salt and therefore abhorred it. The cultures that forbid blood and drained it, considered salt valuable.


#70

Another thing to consider, and this is just piecing together some spread out pieces of information: Animals can be fed on certain salt-water raised crops, and many livestock seem to like them a good bit, but need extra water because the crops are saltier. I’m going to venture a guess that their meat becomes saltier as well if they eat enough of such crops. Presumably, if we then eat such meat, we get the extra salts from the meat itself (blood or not, though perhaps the blood is also saltier).

Likewise, if we are somewhere that eats those salt water crops ourselves, we probably get that extra salt more directly. A lot of the ones I’ve heard of were cross bred with existing salt-water using crops recently, so I doubt ancient cultures had that, but they may have eaten some of the already existing plants that grew near salt-water sources (or in). The most obvious would be seaweed, but maybe some others. These also tend to grow best in desert areas for some reason, and there certainly does seem to be some amount of proximity between the various Near-Eastern Salt seas and deserts, so maybe those plants were used in those regions.

The other obvious possibility is salt-water fish, but I don’t know personally how salty salt-water fish actually tends to be, though that’s something that should be simple enough to find. A lot of people in that region relied on regular fish eating, so that would be an easy one.


(Anne Marie) #71

Minerals always get depleted in soil when crops aren’t rotated.

But this isn’t only in modern times. God instructed the Israelites to give the land a rest every 7 years.


#72

Even if growing veggies in garden crop rotation is useful, and helps to reduce risks of crop diseases. It not just hit and miss either, theres reasoning behind what goes where and when.

I can’t remember the whole order things went in,
but do remember things like don’t sow carrots where compost has recently been applied. If the roots hit a lump of compost the root will spilt, giving funny shaped carrots!
Also legumes are a good choice because they set nitrogen into the soil. Follow them with nitrogen loving plants.


(Bacon is the new bacon) #73

And don’t plant onions in a field that will be used for pasture. Eating the greens makes the cows’ milk taste funny!


#74

I am not a vegan,

There have been many longer term vegans gradually becoming clinically ill (showing symptoms), of nutritional deficiency over extended periods of time. Like keto, veganism is a dietary cult of the newbie because of the dramatic initial positive health benefits. Veganism has the added feel good of indisputable animal welfare ethics piled on top like sugary icing. It is postulated the delay in the development of illness is due to the draw-down effect where the body supplements essential nutrients from body reserves. But when those reserves are depleted, illness occurs.

We can learn from vegans.

I ponder the long term metabolic effects of the ketogenic diet. Whether there is any essential nutrient that loses its bioavailability, or effect, in the environment of nutritional ketosis? Or, as has been shown in the initial ketogenic dieresis, that essential nutrients are lost from the body to create a nett deficiency? Whether, like our close dietary cousins the vegans, nutritional ketosis followers will eventually experience a limit to drawing down reserves from the body?* Which then requires ongoing manufactured supplementation, if the adequate regenerative doses can’t be accessed via food sources. Especially when we find that the food sources may be raised on deficient diets from deficient soils themselves.

I think in both cases the dietary input needs vary along a continuum. That as initial progress is made, the body heals and changes. Due to the changes the needs change, thus the dietary inputs need to be adapted to the new contemporary state. Hopefully each step, dare I say health plateau, is an indicator for n=1 research, tweaking (twerking and tweeting), and dietary adjustment to progress toward optimal health and well being.

We have learned lots from vegans, and they do love animals, which is an excellent personality trait.

*in terms of excess body fat loss, they are reserves that many ketonians aim to deplete. The vegan problem in low body fat states is that essential fat related nutrients are not so readily replenished in a very low fat WoE.


#75

I’ve seen it convincingly argued that soil depletion over time was the root cause, or at least catalyst, for the Mediterranean region Bronze Age Collapse (which, depending on dating, may have happened a while before or after, or even during, Exodus, so very relevant). Egypt seems to have had a bit of extra time due to the Nile regularly replenishing the soil, but not fully (so over time it still depleted too far to sustain the number of necessary crops).


#76

And to pile on a little bit, I found this…

84% of Vegetarians and Vegans Return to Meat. Why?

I guess being a vegetarian or vegan is more like a phase.


#77

Yep, but only if fed within a time frame ( not sure what that is for cows).
For our goats, we could feed brassicas without it affecting milk, buy only if fed 10 or 12 hours before milking, so basically they got it at milking time, and not every day either.


#78

I take magnesium.


#79

I’m curious what time frame any potential deficiencies would manifest themselves. I believe the initial symptoms some people see is more a revealing of a previous condition and/or genetic variation. There are anecdotal instances of people on ketogenic diets for 5+ years. Or would a better cutoff be 10 years?


#80

I’m not sure Carol. I have a gut feeling that it will happen for the keto focussed practitioner who doesn’t track their micros. at least 6 monthly. My own experience with discovering symptomatic deficiency occurred at about 3 years into ketogenic eating. That’s with measuring my blood ketones and blood glucose at least 5 days a week since starting (so I know I have remained in nutritional ketosis).

Anecdotally, from the Peak Human podcast episode with Lierre Keith, I think they were estimating about 5 years before draw down symptoms manifest…