Too much food


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #21

I want to state up front that I am not advocating anyone drink ethanol. I personally don’t care whether you do or don’t. I think adults can make their own decisions based on relevant information. So please consider this simply some input into the category of relevant info. With that out of the way, here’s the metabolic pathway(s) for ethanol. The primary pathway is via ADH. But whichever pathway the end result is the same, acetaldehyde:

Source of this diagram is this article:

Brief Discussion

Ethanol metabolizes ultimately to acetoacetate, water and CO2. From a keto perspective, what’s not to like? For starters, a couple of things. The NADH : NAD+ ratio increases and ROS is generated. How much so of each is dose dependent and individually variable. Neither of these is beneficial, but ethanol is not the only stuff that does this. If you keep it low level you can cope as well as with anything else that does it. Also, your liver tends to concentrate on metabolizing ethanol to the exclusion of anything else until the ethanol is gone. That includes fat. But how big a deal is that when the end products of ethanol metabolism include ketones? Once all the ethanol is gone, the liver recommences metabolizing fatty acids and generating ketones from them just like it was before you gave it ethanol. This might be an issue when you’re trying to lose body fat and you keep interrupting by feeding your liver ethanol instead.

As I mentioned, the negative consequences are dose dependent and individually variable. If one is drinking ‘heavily’ and consistently the bad consequences outweigh any potential benefits from generating some ketones. In fact, the article from which I lifted this diagram discusses one potential fatal consequence: alcoholic ketoacidosis. This, however, only occurs in alcoholics drinking huge amounts of ethanol and not eating much of anything else.

If instead one imbibes only small amounts occasionally and does not exceed the liver’s capacity to cope healthily with the transient bump in NADH : NAD+ ratio and ROS, you can probably continue to drink and not damage yourself doing so. Of course, individual variability can make determining what’s safe and not for you challenging. Start low. Finally, I’m talking about pure ethanol here, not beers, not liqueurs or mixed drinks that contain carbs or sweeteners.

And in case it’s not perfectly clear, I am also talking about ‘small’ amounts ingested at ‘sufficient’ intervals to give your liver and overall metabolism time to metabolize, move on and recover from any affects of bumping up your NADH : NAD+ ratio and ROS; and any other side effects. If you’ve already damaged your liver from prior years of abuse, this is not a prescription to fix it.


How does alcohol affect the keto diet
(Simon Saunders) #22

If you do plan to eat the normal 3 meals a day.

Focus on getting at least 10g worth of fat in each meal (to ensure enough bile to avoid gallstones)
Focus on at least 30g of protein in the meal (to ensure the leucine content is enough to stimulate MPS to avoid losing too much muscle when loosing fat)
Fill in the carbs with what you do as long as your hitting the other two.

When you’re in the fat-burning zone hunger pretty much disappears but you want to only loose mainly fat and have the least impact on your lean mass as that affects your overall BMR.

FYI - I’ve now gone from (124kg / 273lbs to 72kg 158lb) and also like to follow up on dexa scans to ensure my lean mass is intact during my journey.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #23

@ketoisland Please elaborate. I find your numbers confusing.

10 grams fat x 3 meals per day equals 270 kcals (10x9x3). 30 grams protein x 3 meals per day equals 360 kcals (30x4x3). That’s a total of 630 kcals of fat and protein per day. Assuming one eats at least 1200 kcals (and 1500 would be better - and in my opinion still too little except for a midget) that leaves 570 kcals, ie a minimum of 142.5 grams of carbs to ‘fill in’:

How is this a ketogenic diet? The objective of a ketogenic diet is to replace the energy one’s been consuming in the form of carbs with fat instead.

Maybe you typo’d and meant “eat a minimum” of 30 grams of fat at each meal? That would at least put one’s total energy input closer to 1200 kcals without adding 140+ grams of carbs. Also, eating more protein than fat does not make any sense either. According to Bikman, in the presence of elevated carbs, protein drives up insulin - which inhibits ketosis.

What am I missing here?


#24

How much are you actually eating? Are you tracking your intake? If you’re not loosing it’s got to be more than you think it is. Are you eating fat to satiety / filling in the gaps or are you doing the bacon grease butter chugging version of keto?


(Simon Saunders) #25

I gave an example of an extreme caloric deficit allowing the fat to come off stored body fat but its important not to hit under the 10g of fat per meal, the rest of the fat on the body will be the form ketones are made from, the amount of caloic deficit required is up to the person plans. But I’m not saying only eat 10g worth of fat in the meal just highlighting the absolute minimum required to avoid issues.

If newly coming to keto i would just advise to get to maintenance levels and ride what ever fat loss happens.

In the end if the fat level is increased to caloic maintenance (I found I can be more liberal in a ketogenic state with the max fat level as Bikman shows that extra fat enery will burn off as heat)


(Joey) #26

Must admit that I kind of got lost in the math too. Overly complicated? And extreme caloric deficit sounds like a good idea for virtually no one, does it?

Perhaps I’m missing something too? If so, sorry for making matters worse. :man_shrugging:


(Simon Saunders) #27

download

It basically summarises the WFKD diet from Dr Phnney :phinney:

If you look below the lower fat portion in purple comes from body fat and as we shift the maintenance it looks all green as all the fat from the plate.

ZMNwxdE0DjyzPIcSHWt1TcRnQj5t2j4gTziUoWKX114

When I meet Dr Phnney :phinney: we discussed the loads per meals and why fasting isn’t his favorite method to loose weight.

Ketosis is an awesome tool to lose weight when dialled in and very predictable to lose whatever fat is required.


(Joey) #28

@ketoisland Thanks, this makes much more sense now. I’m still unclear about the “fill in with carbs” guidance farther above, so this was helpful! :+1:


(Old Baconian) #29

For what it’s worth, Prof. Bikman’s mantra is “control carbs, prioritise protein, and fill in with fat.”


(Joey) #30

Yeah, “fill in with fat” makes a good bit more sense for Keto menu development than “fill in with carbs” :wink:


(Simon Saunders) #31

I found from testing myself and around 50 others over the years, that carb sources from green veg don’t need to be counted to the carb content.

Just the 10g total refined carb sources ie peanut butter/nuts / fruits etc.

But it needed to be separated by at least 5hrs if you wanted to dip in a few times a day.

You cant save them up till the end of the day and go for 30g refined carbs in a single meal otherwise you’ll get knocked out and will take time to readapt.

It is completely optional and not required.

Main point the end of the day prioritise protein which Is much better paulsed throughout the day as we have a limited storage of amino acids.

Fats ensure you have enough for bile to function correctly (it will make up the highest macro but is moderated pending your goal and if your at your goal needs to be high enough to not loose weight)

And again carbs will be the smallest percentage, but highlighting the amount that can be consumed without dipping out of ketosis.


(Joey) #32

The intraday portions you focus on are pretty interesting. Haven’t really heard much about this nuance discussed around here.

I’d be interested in learning more, as a guy who eats TMAD, but especially dinner is where I “pig out.”

The OP complained about not being hungry, never being an overeater, yet weighing 225lbs and drinking 2 cans of beer daily. Perhaps drawing some intraday distinctions might be a secondary consideration for this individual?


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #33

Also from Phinney and makes lots more sense to me:

For example, in the hypothetical Induction phase total daily calories from fat are 820. That works out to a bit more than 30.3 grams of fat per 3 meals per day (820 / 9 = 91.1 // 91.1 / 3 = 30.37)

There is no ‘fill in’ with carbs. If you do the math, in the induction phase carbs are 10 grams per meal (120 / 4 = 30 // 30 / 3 = 10).

I appreciate you have successfully lost a lot of body fat, but I still find your initial description problematic. It seems what you describe looks a lot like a high carb, moderate protein, low fat and calorie restricted version of CICO. Eating more protein than fat doesn not make any sense to me. And in neither of Phinney’s charts (the one you posted and the one I’ve posted here) does he recommend eating equal amounts of fat and protein, and not even close to more protein than fat.


(Joey) #34

Do you happen to know the thought process underlying the reductions shown for expenditure? Presumably not exertion-related… So is this the metabolism slowing down?


(Jane) #35

For men maybe……. Not so predictable for women who sometimes struggle to lose body fat even with very low carbs and not over or under eating. Hormones, medications, stress all play important factors.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #36

My guess would be, yes. For example, in my own case of losing about 35 pounds of fat in the initial 6 months of keto, my total daily energy requirement went UP because my level of activity increased. I started keto eating 1500 kcals per day and only stopped losing weight at 2500 kcals per day. I have since increased to approx 2700 kcals with zero weight gain. I think a more sedentary person would lower their energy requirement, since carrying around lots of fat requires more than carrying around significantly less of it.


(Old Baconian) #37

Dr. Phinney is clear, in the lectures in which he uses this graph, that the point is to illustrate how eating to satiety works. At no point does the hypothetical patient described in this graph calculate how many calories she is eating. Eating fat to satiety is what determines what proportion of her energy comes from dietary fat and what from excess stored fat. You will notice that in the maintenance phase, when there is no more excess fat to deal with, she is getting all her energy from her food.


(Joey) #38

That addresses input. I was wondering about reduction in expenditure?


(Bob M) #39

Shh…don’t tell anyone, but I’m eating more protein than fat right now. My lunch today is top round (London Broil):

I’m (re)testing higher protein, lower fat.

Will have more of this tonight for dinner, along with zero-fat yogurt.

Had OMAD, PSMF yesterday.


(Old Baconian) #40

In that graph? Phinney noted in one lecture that “her” muscle mass declines a bit, because “she” doesn’t need quite so much, since “she” is no longer hauling around all that extra fat. (The quotation marks are because the graph is fictional.)