To save the planet - make more meat!

(Doug) #81

Bunny, I love the ‘before’ and ‘after’ pictures from Allan Savory in the video in Karim’s original post here. Amazing, seemingly miraculous.

I do really question the math - we need peer-reviewed studies on what he proposes. From what I do see, at the very least there are substantial disagreements with his claims, based apparently on sound stuff:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster, of course. :wink: At the best, overall those resources persist despite human action. Cutting down forests is often for growing crops or animals, but it’s also often not as simple as that - there are a mixture of causes that in the end all go to population pressure.

(Karim Wassef) #82

Life is a web, not a straight line. It seems to point to opposite cause and effect than what common sense would indicate. I’m also skeptical of studies by any industry group where there is a vested interest in defending the status quo or biased interest… the aftermath of Ancel Keys messed that up for me…

To increase the number of beavers, add more wolves… this is the reality of nature’s web.

Kill off the bison and you have a dust bowl…

Nature is resilient. We just need enough scientists who are willing to study it’s intricacies.

(Doug) #83

Indeed, Karim. One thing that I think Savory is entirely correct on is that Africa needs to stop burning.


I do think that some people around the world are having success with Savory’s method. The question is if they would do worse with lower-density, higher-duration grazing. But if slash-and-burn wipes out the organic matter above ground every year, then neither has a chance.

The overwhelming majority of the red and yellow areas have enough rainfall to be productive cattle-raising land or forest.

(⚕ ⚕) #84

Allan Savory appeared on the latest “Human Performer Outliers” podcast, and he’s quite good on it. Dr. Baker was hoping to hear Savory riff on how we need more ruminants, so we can eat them. Savory pushed back hard. We’re confusing the tool for the method. He’s promoting a process whereby we can understand, diminish, if not address, the problems of human-caused deforestation. He doesn’t offer a singular method, but an innovative and agile process that accommodates local social, political, and environmental issues. This should allow his remediation process to scale well. However, he warns us on "Paradigm paralysis.

He caught my attention with “paradigm paralysis” something we low-carbers are familiar with.

(Running from stupidity) #85

I’ve pretty much given up trying to listen to that podcast, can’t cope with the horrible audio “quality” and Shawn’s domineering rants in the guise of questions/refusing to let Zack get a question in because he’s more important because he’s a surgeon. Also, the whole “broadcasting the pre-show chat” thing is incredibly unprofessional.

Mind you, I’m still way back in the first year/few months or whatever.

(⚕ ⚕) #86

Which made it all the more interesting. Seems like Savory is no one’s fool. Give it a listen.

(Karim Wassef) #87

Veganism is part of the puritanical religious movement… trying to keep us pure and destroying the planet’s natural balance in the process…

Ok… little tongue in cheek given my current vegan fasted state for lent… but I couldn’t resist.

(Karim Wassef) #88

Ruminants to save California

(Chris - #89

Doesn’t get much greener than that, eh?

(Karim Wassef) #90

(Consensus is Politics) #91

Thank you @PaulL, the Baconian! I had just hit my fill of this thread, when i got to your post. I noticed i wasnt even halfway through it when I decided everyone was missing the point about all of these ism’s. They can all work. They will all mostly fail at some point. The common factor of failure is the same. Its being run by humans. Mankind is notoriously famous for screwing things up. Not always intentionally, but non the less.

In one extreme we have communism. The philosophy of choice by dictators. In itself, it isnt a bad idea. But get humans involved in running it and you get self appointed dictator’s with absolute power. And if Q taught us nothing else, absolute power corrupts absolutely. In a communistic society it is illegal to say anything against the government. A prisonable offensive. Try to leave the country and you will most likely be shot on the way out. And then the rest of your family targetted for execution.

Freedom is an illusion under that system. You are free to do what you want as long as it fits within this very narrow field of whats allowable. Not to mention, you will be what the society needs. Be it Doctor, lawyer, janitor, or ass kisser. My apologies for lumping janitors in with the lawyers, i meant no offense to the janitors.

The direct opposite of this, which I dont think actually exsists, yet, is bound to be just as bad. Would most likely set itself up as some sort of utopial society, where everyone is equal (which we are not. We are mearly born equal, after that its up to you to improve yourself) the society then decides what you can do or cant do based upon what society needs… and down a slippery slope to dictators again. Big difference here isnprobably corporations running the show instead of governments. A lot of sci-fi likes to run with this. The Aliens Universe, as well as tv show, Dark Matter, have corporatations running everything, even at war with one another.

All fantasy aside, we need to deal with the greatest weakness in all of these ism’s. It he human compnent. Basically only two ways to handle this. Overbearing Iron Fist, or to hold leaders accountable, as in a Representative Republic, such as we have now. No matter the political leaning, only so much can be done to upset it.

Looking at several things that have happened in the world lately, we have a Dictatorship overthrown in South America (which seem to be somewhat common there), we have riots in France that have lasted months now over government increasing taxes to pay for “green” agendas, and the Brexit, where the government leaders lied to the people as said “we will do what you decise, if you want out of the EU we will exit the EU.” Overwhelmingly the people voted to leave the EU. Only to have the government say, “we think we need to take that vote again, we cant beleive anyone wants to really leave the EU” (paraphrasing there).

What do those three examples have in common? That fact the few people are in charge of how things get done, and the agenda of the few, the elites, get what they want, screw the people. “We know better than they do”.


It’s called capitalism.

There’s a lot down there because the United States government backed right-wing authoritarian coups across Argentina, Brazil, Chile, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Peru, Uruguay, pretty much all the nations down there. They didn’t just pop out of nowhere.

(Karim Wassef) #93

Now now… we’ve been down this rabbit hole… let’s keep our focus on meat and how it can save the planet :smiley:

(⚕ ⚕) #94

I quite agree.


Get the United States to embrace raising sheep and goats for consumption; renew a focus on bouncing the bison population back, let them roam the Great Plains again. There’s two suggestions.

(Consensus is Politics) #96

That sounds good to me :cowboy_hat_face:

(Karim Wassef) #97

this is a good one from Frank.

(Karim Wassef) #98

Thanks to Paul @PaulL for sharing this on another thread! Awesome vid!

(Norma Laming) #99

No need to restrict it to the Old Testament. There’s a huge amount of animal sacrifice, fat and feasting in the Iliad. Eating is what distinguishes humans from the gods

(Karim Wassef) #100

I think the gods would have eaten fat anyway… :smiley: