To save the planet - make more meat!

(Karim Wassef) #61

I really want to get us back to focus on the slaughter and enjoyment of the flesh of beasts… :slight_smile:

larger social and philosophical constructs do effect this, but it’s at another level of magnification…

meat and water are key resources - they always have. But scientifically - which is actually more sustainable? Farming or Ranching?

We need some well compensated and driven innovating scientists to help explain things here… :smiley: - see what I did there? LOL

(Doug) #62

It is our experience that I’m talking about. History has plenty of examples of how socialism fails - it’s not a matter of “victors” or not, it’s just historical fact. The decline of the soviet union, China being forced to free markets, Cambodia, Venezuela, Romania, Poland, Greece, North Korea, Ethiopia, East Germany, Cuba…

“Central planning” by the gov’t is almost always inherently inefficient. Free Markets and the people who are actually closely involved do things vastly better.

An old joke from the Soviet era: Pavel begged the Commissar of his communal dairy to give him his own cow to care for. He promised that, under his direct care, he could increase the milk production of his cow, and, as a reward for his efforts he would get to sell half of any milk above the cow’s official production level. With the extra money he earned, Pavel was able to buy some luxury goods and improve his family’s life.

Sergey went to the Commissar to complain that it was unfair that Pavel’s family was doing better than his family, and demanded that the Commissar do something about this subversion of socialist justice. The Commissar said, “Fine, I’ll give you your own cow too.” Sergey blanched and screamed, “I don’t want my own cow, you fool; I want you to kill Pavel’s cow.”


Specially in usa, there isnt, not only its a gamble of who ur parents are gonna be but also the enviroment ur gonna live in. Saying that white people have a headstart cause they are white is rubbish. Its simply a matter of where u are born and which culture is the dominant one and which one u adopt as urs in the area u live in, it has nothing to do with race or gender.

Why are you discriminating against white cis men ?


In what possible universe are any of those socialist countries? Please don’t tell me we’re confusing socialism with Communism here?

On the flip side tho tell me one country where capitalism has succeeded? It certainly isn’t America lol.

Here’s an American joke: believing their system has succeeded and is an example to the world when it required the Native American genocide and the enslavement of Black people in order to set its foundations, and then made the survivors of those ordeals a permanent underclass because “human nature.” It has the world’s largest accumulated wealth and yet can’t feed its own citizens because it’s too busy bloating its military budget and giving rich people tax breaks. It thinks businesses should be treated like people. It thinks meritocracy exists rather than a bunch of old rich straight white cis men putting the burden of working the cogs on literally everyone else in society, and calling it a success.


Because any time anyone tries to level the playing field and get them to share the power they have, this is how their thought process goes:


(⚕ ⚕) #66

Indeed. Again, we can discuss animal husbandry and the pros and cons of it’s impact on climate and environment without the slinging of tired slogans about which macroeconomic system is best. That’s me talking as a forum participant, not an admin.


Alright I’ll step out again so you guys can have it back on topic. If someone wants to take it elsewhere, feel free to @ me.


Whose thought process ? Cause i dont feel that way how that picture is presented, if ur assuming that it does, it makes u racist. Myself i dont care if u are white, black, yellow or green, or sexually like boys, girls, both, animals or whatever it may be. All that matters to me is the person itself im dealing with and i give respect and love for those who deserve it in my eyes and it has nothing to do with race, sex, gender or skin color.

Edit: My bad Karim i didnt read ur post. KetoCobra DM me if u wanna chat about it more.

(Doug) #69

They all are/were socialist. Real communism is never achieved, i.e. it’s not like the workers really own everything, and all are most certainly not equal. Beyond that, the two systems share so many things that it does not matter, in the reality of human practice.

As far as capitalism “succeeding” - it’s always going to be relative. When you look at the wealth of nations and the living standards of their citizens, the comparison to socialism is clear.

Capitalism does not have to have racism or prejudice. Socialist countries have no shortage of them.

The advantage of capitalism is simply rooted in human nature - that we are not motivated nearly as strongly by working for the supposed “common good” as we are working for our own good and the good of our families. Does it not make sense that if you and I are supposedly working toward the same goal, that if I’m really lazy and don’t do much, it will lessen your motivation, i.e. you’d be saying, “Why should I work hard, or even work at all?”

This proves out in practice all the time - the soviet collective farms had abysmal production, while the small, private garden plots that the workers were allowed to have for their families had roughly ten times the production, per land area.

(Doug) #70

They’re equal, there. Both can be sustainable, or not. Sustainability involves lesser production, at least in the short term. My real question is if there is room on the earth to meaningfully increase meat production, especially with the coming population increase upon us - we’re going to have another almost 30% in population, really fast, by historical standards.

On a per-capita basis, increasing meat production is just treading water, until we get past +30%. I look at the current land usage, and the political reality - we’re not going to cut down all the forests, for example, and wonder just where we’d produce more meat?

(⚕ ⚕) #71

I propose that this rancor we see in this thread reflects the ingenuity of the EAT-Lancet group’s proposal. By unnecessarily injecting such broad strokes as “corrective – and coercive – governmental actions” to force us to eat grass instead of, say, beef, we go “off the rails.” It’s not the first time division was an effective deterrent.

We here all share, passionately share, agreement on what’s wrong with the standard dietary recommendations. But when we touch the third political rail, our very own beloved train goes off the tracks. Or is that a terrible mixed metaphor?

I have passionate views on macroeconomics, but I have other forums for that. Plus, at my age, there’s very little by way of argument I haven’t heard.

The question is – can animal husbandry help, rather than prevent, all nations feed their people to a better standard than we currently have?

Again, citizen Screenack here, not admin-boy.

(Doug) #72

Those are some stunning transformations… :slightly_smiling_face:

(Karim Wassef) #73

Hmm… let me rephrase it. If we were going to colonize Mars and needed a sustainable food supply that could convert sunlight into the best source of nutritional energy dense food… I’d take grass, sheep, plankton and fish…

I know it’s a silly oversimplification since all living things need an ecosystem. I just don’t think that potatoes are the answer.

(Karim Wassef) #74

(Omar) #75

European countries were briefly successful but this success is coming to an end.

they supported such social programs from their colonies. It is a bank account that has drained.

the manufacturing industry in West Europe which once were a primary income source ( and still is for Germany only ) is not any more a primary income and that is why the world trade treaties will face difficulties and may end in order for countries to protect their markets

now Europe they have to follow the hard core us model but facing difficulties from the refusing people.

the world is heading into unknown territory in regards to macro politics and countries relations in the middle term.

sorry OP for drifting I could not resist.

(Karim Wassef) #76

sounds disconnected, but fast forward to the grazing cattle impact on wildlife and green cover!

(Bunny) #77

We need more dung (poop/fertilizer to grow things) and hooves tilling the land scape where is the math on that?

BTW: that’s a nice chart!

(Bunny) #78

I would think it is more of a question of who creates the resources (e.g. forests, green carpet of the savanna?) to begin with?

That’s why humans are here, to shift the grazing areas/patterns?

(Karim Wassef) #79

watch the videos. Nature is not linear and “common sense” is overly simplistic.

It has a complex web of life - “trophic cascade”

real science turns hubris to humility.

(Bunny) #80

Awesome video on how to feed grain free shickens!

Bet there are lots of bugs and worms in that compost also for them to eat?