The 'Give us this day our daily bread' thread - aka theology of keto

(Barbara Greenwood) #1

I wonder if any here who identify as Christians have thought about the place of bread in Christian theology. I am the bread of life… bread and wine at Holy Communion…

I am an ordained Methodist minister and celebrate communion most Sundays. The bit of bread I have then (we use ordinary bread, not wafers) is now the only grain-containing food I eat. And the dealcoholised wine, which is packed with sugar, is one of the two exceptions to my no-sugar rule (the other one being occasional 85% dark chocolate).

Even more challenging for me is that we have started a Bread Church. People gather together, we bake bread, and they take two loaves away - one for themselves, one to give away. So, in a sense, I am encouraging people to make, eat and give away something that I don’t believe is healthy for them to eat.

Then we have lunch of home-made soup with some of the bread we’ve made (I take a slice of my low-carb bread, or sometimes make it there). And then there are scones, which they eat with jam and cream, while I eat the bit of cheese I’ve brought with me. And most of the time I’ve eaten my own soup as well, because most of the recipes they are following are too high carb for me.

I did suggest today that I take charge of the scones next time - having seen a recipe for lemon scones on ditchthecarbs.com. Maybe, over time, I can encourage more people to try the low carb way.

(Keto in Katy) #2

Is sourdough a better option? I no longer have a desire for bread but sometimes at a nice restaurant I will have a bit of sourdough with a lot of butter.

(Barbara Greenwood) #3

Two questions: is sourdough better from a health perspective, and is it easy to make? We need something that can be made relatively quickly, with a limited number of ingredients, and quickly taught to novices.

(Crow T. Robot) #4

My take: The use of ‘bread’ in these scriptures just means ‘food’. “Daily bread” means ‘food for the day’, not specifically baked, grain bread.

(Tom) #5

As a Christian, I view bread as a socially and culturally significant object that was used to illustrate some vital lessons about . If Christ was doing the same thing today, I think it’s conceivable that’s he might use another culturally significant foodstuff to convey the same message.

#6

Really simple and fast quick bread with flaxseed made here:

Skip the sesame seed. Cut up in cubes and you have the communion bread for the ritual.

The nice thing about this, too, is that it is much cheaper than almond four (nut flours tend to be quite expensive I find).

Hope this helps or gives an alternative?? Flaxseed is an ancient food used in biblical era/times I think.

(Dustin Cade) #7

when it comes to evidence vs conventional wisdom, evidence should always win… what is tradition if it doesn’t move us forward but holds us back?

(Barbara Greenwood) #8

I think you’re on to something there. What do you think he’d use today?

As an aside… when I was training, we were told in one class about coconut theology. In some Pacific island (can’t remember where, sorry), they do Communion with coconut meat and milk. They break open the coconut by impaling it on a spike, echoing the violence of the crucifixion.

(Barbara Greenwood) #9

Ooh, nice, thanks! I may have to experiment a bit though. It’s not bread for Communion I need so much as an alternative to make at Bread Church. The recipe I currently make for myself (almond flour, flax seed and psyllium husk based) makes a pretty good bread, but it’s quite a complex recipe.

Have you ever tried this flaxseed bread as a loaf?

#10

I have… find that it is a lot of “roughage” though.

I haven’t tried adding yeast to it to see what happens…you know what…I’m going to tinker with that tonight…I’ll let you know how it goes…

(Tom) #11

For social/cultural significance? Pizza? It’s widely known to the point of being iconic, individualized, and accessible by people all over the world who adhere to all sorts of different ways of eating.

#12

I don’t disagree with this, but I think bread was chosen because the manna that the Jews gathered while wandering the wilderness was bread-like in consistency and they chose the thing that was closest to it.

Personally, I feel no specific allegiance to bread, so I’ve used leaves of Spring Mix lettuce and more recently a small chunk of a brazil nut to substitute for the bread.

However, I see no reason that someone couldn’t use Oopsie Bread, or the 2 minute keto bread in a mug.

(Barbara Greenwood) #13

Communion is a remembrance of the Last Supper, which was a Passover meal. The bread that was used was unleavened - I’ve seen pittas or other flatbreads used in attempt to get closer to what Jesus and the Disciples actually used, although matzos may have been closer.

But, if the incarnation means anything, then it must mean that the “Bread” of each community and culture is acceptable to use for communion. Bread is a staple food in most western cultures, but comes in infinite variety.

If Jesus came today and used pizza, would it be fathead, do you think?

(Crow T. Robot) #14

I think we are talking about two separate contexts. The “daily bread” of different cultures around the world is different, e.g. in SE Asia wheat bread is uncommon and rice is predominant. Any widely available and common staple of the diet could be considered “daily bread”.

However, the Last Supper was accompanied by the instruction to keep doing it in remembrance of the sacrifice that Jesus was about to make. The bread and wine were used as symbols of the flesh and blood of Christ. In particular, the fact that the bread was unleavened symbolized the sinlessness of Jesus. I think for the commemoration of the Last Supper, one should stick as closely as possible to the original.

(Barbara Greenwood) #15

Hmm… that is ringing a bell for me somewhere, which probably means I’ve heard it before. My gut instinct is to suggest that that is a later Christian interpretation, a forcing of symbolism onto something which had a practical origin. Unleavened bread was eaten at Passover as a reminder of the haste with which they had to leave Egypt - there was no time to let the yeast work.

(Crow T. Robot) #16

Oh, no doubt. The original Jewish Passover bread definitely had a practical origin.

(Matthew Gibson) #17

Ok so, we were at church Sunday and I put the piece of bread in my mouth… But immediately thought… omg… I’m ruining my fast… And thought long and hard about taking the little cup of juice but did drink it. All I could this k about was… did I just ruin my way of eating for th2 day… And also… How do I explain this one… Was running through my head how I could explain to the usher… umm sorry I can’t eat that but I believe… haha

(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #18

May I ask: did you start this, or was it something that was wished upon you?

You’ve already explained that the communion bread and wine isn’t really a big problem.
The problem seems to be the other things, which seem to me to be more cultural than any particular part of your religion. (I happen to be married to a practising Methodist. They don’t have Bread Church but they have plenty of communal lunches and occasional dinners that are usually very carby, a problem when I (who happen to be a LCHF/keto ex-Catholic non-believer) am a guest… :slight_smile: ).

The problem seems to be that carbs are so very deeply embedded into our culture, whether we are part of a religious group or not. I’ve had similar problems at other communal gatherings with no religious connections whatsoever.

However, going back to religion for a moment, one thing I remember from my Catholic upbringing is the symbolism of “The Lamb of God”, with (presumably) Christ being the sacrificial lamb, which reminds us of stories in the Old Testament about animals being sacrificed.

Which reminds us that the biblical Hebrews were a partly pastoral, partly nomadic people, and meat must have been an important part of their diet.

I am also reminded of the phrase “to kill the fatted calf”, reminding us that fatty meat was the most prized sort of meat among ancient peoples.

Perhaps you should replace “Bread Sunday” with “Lamb Sunday”: Come together and roast a nice fatty joint of lamb and share it, and slice up the remainder for people to take away and either put in their fridges/ freezers or give away. (There would have to be a vegetarian option I suppose).

And I’m sure “The Lamb of God” and perhaps the place of animals and meat in our culture throughout the ages could provide plenty of material for sermons.

(Crow T. Robot) #19

It depends on the timeframe. The “Hebrew people” generally date from the time that Abraham and his family moved from the Chaldean city of Ur to the land of Canaan. During that time (about 4 centuries) until their sojourn in Egypt, they “lived in tents”, made no cities, raised animals, and that was pretty much it. Possibly, they traded for grain because Med style flat bread was a fairly common staple. That said, dairy and meat were daily fare.

In Egypt, it’s most likely that their diet mirrored the Egyptians being heavy grain consumption, though they still kept animals.

After the Exodus, life in the new land of Israel was more or less a standard agricultural system. They farmed various forms of grain, along with vineyards and the usual domestic animals (minus swine, of course). Interestingly, though, the vast majority of the millions upon millions of animals sacrificed at the Tabernacle and later at the Temple in Jerusalem were eaten by the Priests and in some cases the people bringing the sacrifice.

Suffice it to say, meat eating was widespread among the Hebrews.

(Barbara Greenwood) #20

The suggestion was made by someone else, but I embraced it because I have experienced it elsewhere and seen the positive benefit in terms of community and personal growth.

Having started it, it would be difficult to relaunch as Lamb Church. And not everyone needs to avoid carbs as strictly as those of us with deranged metabolism. Just most people :wink: