The Entire Ketogenic Diet in One Sentence

simpleketo
(Susan) #222

I reported that post as SPAM ----

(Polly) #223

In I think that was a good call Susan. It worried me too and then I wondered whether it was just a language issue.

(Joey) #224

@FatMan Sorry, but I’m going to take exception to this claim. To be clear, I’m not a fan of continuing to “feed the sweet beast” with non-sugar substitutes, especially artificial ones. But pure stevia extract (a natural, organic plant derivative) has been explicitly shown in studies on humans (not rats) NOT to increase insulin, especially as compared to alternatives.

This study in particular might be of interest:

A relevant section covering the results:

“Post-hoc comparisons revealed that postprandial insulin levels were significantly lower in the stevia condition compared to both the aspartame ( p = .04) and sucrose conditions ( p = .003; see Figure 3). Specifically, postprandial insulin levels were significantly reduced at 30 and 60 minutes after the test lunch meal in the stevia condition compared to the aspartame condition (all ps < .05). Postprandial insulin levels were also significantly lower at 20 minutes following consumption of the preload, as well as 30 and 60 minutes after the test lunch meal, in the stevia condition compared to the sucrose condition (all ps < .05).”

If I’m misinterpreting the results of this study, please don’t hesitate to set me straight.

Again, I offer this to further our collective grasp of the relevant science, not to suggest that continuing to create habitual attachments to sweeteners of any kind is a wise course to follow in one’s eating patterns.

FWIW, personally I have very little “sweet tooth” leftover since going keto, but my wife still struggles. So I make us Stevia-based treats kept in the fridge and from time to time this seems to help her stay the course. None would be better, but some seems to hit the sweet spot. :slight_smile:

(Rita) #226

Thank you!! :blush:

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #227

So I think the main point of the OP was that Keto does not have to complicated, and I completely agree ! In fact, reading through all 209 previous comments, I think it’s safe to say that, most of the people here agree with this too.

It was kind of funny to see a few people who just still keep trying to complicate it… But what about my protein ratio ? What about vegetable oil ? What about my daily calories ?
Well, what about it ? :smile: Lol

A year ago when I first started Keto, I read a TON before I actually started eating this way. So I feel like I had already sifted out most of the unimportant stuff, and had pretty much already come to the same conclusion as the OP, which is that Keto just doesn’t have to be that complicated.

I weighed a few things… Counted a few carbs here and there… Tried to get a general idea of my daily intake… For about a week or two. Then just forgot about all that stuff, and kept my carbs low :slightly_smiling_face:

Lost close to 50 lbs in the first 8 or 10 weeks, and have just been cruising along ever since :slightly_smiling_face: Keto has been the greatest WOE I’ve ever experienced ! No plans to ever stop eating this way.

And just by personal choice, I eat home made bread nearly every day… All kinds of Sucralose… Shasta diet soda FTW ! Keto pizza, keto ice cream, etc, etc !
Oh, and I eat a TON of protein too. Not even concerned about my fat protein balance. Must be okay. I’m not getting obese again and feel great :slightly_smiling_face:

Anyway great OP. Should be a sticky :slightly_smiling_face:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #228

Reading through the last thirty or so posts (I don’t check this thread all that frequently), I see some possible confusion that could stand to be cleared up.

The first point is that most meats are about 25% protein (roughly speaking), or about 7 grams of protein per ounce. There is a big difference between eating 300 grams of meat–about 10.5 ounces, which would contain 75 g of protein–and 300 grams of protein—which, in the form of meat, would come to about 1.2 k / 2.6 lb of meat.

Second, protein recommendations vary, and every expert appears to have a different opinion. The unavoidable nitrogen loss from daily living appears to average out to a daily requirement of 0.6 g protein per kg of lean body mass. A few outliers can make do with less, and a few require a lot more protein, as a minimum. If your muscles start wasting, then you need more protein than you are getting. If you start smelling of ammonia, you are getting too much and should cut back. (Remember that protein is our dietary source of nitrogen, because every amino acid contains at least one nitrogen molecule. Fats and carbohydrates contain no nitrogen whatsoever.)

The recommendations vary for different reasons. Dr. Ron Rosedale recommends only enough protein to make up for the inevitable nitrogen loss, because he is concerned with longevity and protein intake stimulates mTOR. Prof. Benjamin Bikman recommends up to 2 g/kg LBM/day, because he is concerned about the loss of muscle mass as we age. Most recommendations fall between these two extremes, and Richard Morris’s official recommendation here on KF is still, I believe 1.0-1.5 g/kg. The Virta Health site contains tables based on total body weight that give recommended protein intakes in this range, so you don’t have to do the arithmetic.

Third, remember that all this is approximate, and that individual variation can be significant.

Fourth, it appears that we have an instinct for getting a good amount of protein (this is known as the Simpson-Raubenheimer Protein-Leveraging Hypothesis), so if you are happy with how much you are taking in, then don’t worry about it.

Fifth, the old notion that excess protein intake is automatically and inevitably converted into glucose by the process called “gluconeogenesis” has been shown to be inaccurate. Apparently, while the real story is quite nuanced, it is more helpful to think of gluconeogenesis as more of a demand-driven process than a supply-driven one.

Sixth, the body can store only a limited amount of amino acids (just as carbohydrates are strings of glucose molecules, so all proteins are arrangements of various amino acids), there is no real point to eating more protein than necessary. Amino acids that can’t be stored in the labile pool are deaminated (the nitrogen is removed and excreted)

Seventh, every protein has a life cycle (the duration ranges from seconds to years, depending on the protein), so every protein needs at some point to be disassembled and reconstructed, especially once it becomes damaged. This process is called autophagy. There is always some autophagy occurring, but fasting and a ketogenic diet are well-known ways of facilitating this process.

Lastly, the effect of protein intake on insulin secretion depends on the rest of the diet. In a diet with a great deal of carbohydrate intake, the rise in insulin from consuming excess protein can be significant. In a low-carbohydrate milieu, however, the rise in insulin is matched by an increase in glucagon, so that the insulin/glucagon ratio remains unchanged.

No ketosis
(Susan) #230

Thank you for this Paul. It is a major piece I have been missing from my information. I have been so worried that I have been over consuming meat.

(Sam) #236

That is amazing, thanks!

(Stickin' with mammoth) #245

“I don’t eat plants.”

It’s carnivore, I know, but I enjoy the shock and silence. Especially from the ones who just announced to the group that they’re vegan and then waited for applause.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #250

I’ve been getting a lot of mileage out of this lately while leading hikes. Invariably, the vegans proclaim their status apropos nothing and then gaze at me steadily with an expression that says, “Top that, unenlightened citizen.” I always say the same thing: “All my health problems evaporated when I stopped eating plants.”

I’ve begun an imaginary game in my mind where I gift myself fifty dollars every time I hear, “Well, everyone’s different,” a hundred dollars when I hear, “Have you been tested for allergies?” and a thousand when I make it through, “Well, some people just can’t have a healthy relationship with food,” without killing someone and burying them in woods.

So far, I’ve paid off all my debts and started a fine 401K.

(PJ) #252

Well hiking is the hobby to have if your secondary hobby is burying people in the woods :rofl:

(Stickin' with mammoth) #253

I love that meme. You are my people.

image

#254

Whaty a wonderful image and message :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

I totally can imagine the slow loss of tension after a very needed killing though so that may not be irrelevant.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #255

It could be interpreted as dragging one’s own body through the woods and, believe me, without proper coffee levels, that’s valid for me.

(Walt ) #262

Hi. I’m new here. My name is Walt. Reading the above article, “The Entire Ketogenic Diet in One Sentence,” I am shocked when I read the Founders of this forum recommended only 20 grams of carbohydrates a day. I’m no dietician or Keto expert, but my reading led me to believe it was twice that, 40 grams per day.

#263

They would have made it zero but they thought that would discourage some folks. So they compromised with 20 grams or less per day. When you consider that eating carbohydrates serves no useful purpose, I think they were quite generous. :relaxed: Welcome and best wishes.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #264

It’s not actually all that restrictive, especially if you aim for 20 g net (digestible carbs) rather than 20 g total (including fibre, which is by definition indigestible). My understanding is that Carl and Richard pegged their recommendation at a level that guarantees success to almost everybody. Although people who are severely insulin-resistant may have to restrict even further.

The goal is to lower serum insulin below 25 μU/mL. Yes, that’s 25 micro-units per millilitre, which is not much. (A unit of insulin is so low that 25 μU needs to be expressed in femtograms, if I did the arithmetic correctly.) So anyone who needs to restore his or her metabolic health (and possibly shed some extra stored fat along the way) needs to be assiduous about restricting carb intake, given that carbohydrate elicits over twice the insulin secretion of protein and far, far more than fat. (The impact of fat intake on insulin secretion is the minimum necessary for survival.0

(Walt ) #265

Thanks, Paul. So watch “net” carbs, not total carbs, right?

How about protein? I guide I have states daily intake of protein on a Keto diet should be about 75 grams. And that “eating too much protein can prevent ketosis.”

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #266

There is some dispute about how much protein we need. Richard Morris, following Dr. Stephen Phinney, recommends 1.0-1.5 g of protein per kilo of lean body mass per day. Other researchers recommend more, and there are a few who recommend less.

Dr. Phinney says there are data to show that too much protein can inhibit ketosis. There used to be a fear that excess amino acid (protein) would all be converted into glucose, but that’s an expensive process that the body does not seem to undertake unless necessary. There are data to show that our ability to assimilate protein declines as we age, and therefore there are recommendations to eat more.

There does seem to be an upper limit to protein intake, based on the ability of the uric acid cycle to handle ammonia from amino acids, but people have trouble eating that much, especially in the form of meat (one research subject in an overfeeding study famously broke down in tears when he was asked to eat yet one more pork chop).

One researcher used to advise eating the minimum amount of protein, around 0.6 g/kg of lean mass/day, so as to avoid activating a protein complex called mTOR and thus promote longevity. As our understanding of mTOR has grown, this concern is no longer seen as relevant.

A couple of researchers believe, on the basis of quite a bit of data, that all mammals, including human beings, have an instinct for eating the proper amount of protein and will overeat if their diet is deficient in protein. What this suggests to me is that if our diet is meeting the protein recommendations above, and we are eating plenty of fat, and yet we are still getting hungry, we probably need more protein than average. As evidence for this, the study that was used to determine the minimum recommended daily protein intake showed that, on average, people lose a certain amount of nitrogen daily, equivalent to a protein intake of 0.6 g/kg of lean mass/day, but the graph of the research subjects’ daily nitrogen loss was quite widely scattered. So some people don’t need nearly as much protein as others do, and we all need to find our proper intake level.

The reason protein is important in the diet is that the human body can only utilise nitrogen from amino acids; we cannot make use of nitrogen from other sources (such as the air, or the nitrates in foods). Insufficient protein, or a diet that does not contain the essential amino acids in the correct proportions, results in malnutrition.

#267

Many people on this forum says total is what important. It may be true for them. I only cared about net as total seemed to be insignificant, I surely had many 80-100g total carb days and my ketosis and fat adaptation had no problems. But we are different and anyway, ketosis and fat adaptation is nice but often not enough. I need “extreme low non-animal carbs” it seems so I like to be close to carnivore where even my total carbs are pretty low :slight_smile: I plan to experiment with “extreme low non-animal net carbs” but that had some disadvantages for me so I am in no hurry. But it probably would work well.

So it’s individual just like the actual carb limit. 20g is a popular amount as it works for most people. Some can go way higher and some must go lower, though. My limit is 40-45g net carbs, it seems but if I want benefits and any hope to lose fat, I should go way lower. I needed time for that but it’s usually easier and more enjoyable than my original keto was. Sometimes being stricter is so much better :slight_smile:

Don’t worry about protein unless you have some special condition demanding being careful with it. That silly belief about extra protein becoming glucose and interfering with ketosis should be forgotten already. I got that, sadly, I was a newbie and everyone and their mother told me I should limit my protein or else. (I tried and failed every day because my body and mind doesn’t work that way, lucky!)
So many of us experienced high protein is fine. And what is this 75g? I know people just adore fixed numbers for absolutely everyone, no matter what but humans don’t function that way… One may easily have a way higher protein need than another person. Like, this petite inactive girl can be okay with 50g (just a random number) but this active muscular giant would have problems below 200g. But it’s not just activity and lean body mass though they definitely matter. 1-2g/kg for LBM is a nice range I always heard about.
I personally can’t eat so very little protein, I get hungry and overeat fat and anyway, I am not into eating super fatty items when I just want some still fatty but protein rich food galore because that is satiating and satisfying for me. There must be a serious individual factor and I happen to need a bit more protein than the measly 2g/kg to feel right… (My LBM is small, 2g/kg is around 100g protein! It would be so crazy not to be able to eat a pound of meat a day on carnivore because then I can’t touch any other protein sources… Impossible. Sometimes I meet tiny protein limits and try to imagine HOW one needs to eat to stay that low. 75g is actually possible for many, it’s not a bad number anyway but it would be extremely unsatisfying and inconvenient for many of us.)
We aren’t robots anyway so it’s normal not to have the same macros every day. Or even similar ones. Sometimes my protein intake just doubles compared to the previous day and it’s fine. I don’t need any noticeable reason for it just like I can’t stick to 2g/kg even when I am inactive. My satiation and taste doesn’t care. I try to be not inactive, though, I even lift except in my most tired and bad times. So some of the protein should go there, it’s very minimal but something :smiley:

Eating TOO MUCH protein is bad, sure. You get bigger problems than lack of ketosis. But as @PaulL wrote, we usually have problems with eating too much protein. Some can do it so it’s good to know the symptoms if we are not sure we aren’t like that but even I don’t have that problem and I am prone to overeating on every diet I am willing to do. IDK how it that with others, I eat and eat and eat and when my protein gets seriously high, I just lose interest. I still may be hungry but I find very fatty, lower-protein things a better idea. It’s very automatic, my protein just unable to go too high - or too low. Smart body. Not smart enough but I can’t complain. So I never worry about protein, I can just forgo tracking and be sure my protein will be in its proper range. I go over the probable upper limit sometimes but just a bit and for one single day and that doesn’t cause any problem for me. My average is safe and about the same for every week under normal circumstances (not necessarily after a drastic woe change). I tracked very much and while many of my numbers were all over the place (less so in average), my protein was more stable.
Probably many people are like this.

We know that people often tend to undereat protein but that’s probably for carbier diets or newbies with a confused body - or the unlucky ones who only can starve on keto (sometimes even when they are already underweight), unable to eat enough… It’s super odd to me but heard about such people many times. Keto messes with their hunger/satiation signs, it seems. So it’s not always right to trust our body to get enough food.