The Alcohol Urine Experiment

[amwassil]

This is a dupe of topic post 84451/19. I’ve created this new topic for in addition so any discussion of the experiment specifically can take place here rather than there.

Am I weird?

The Alcohol Urine Experiment Anyone is welcome to give this a go. The only prerequisites are you’re in ketosis and have been long enough to be fat adapted. I invite you to share your results or not. You can do this simply for your own information if you wish. Pick a couple of days when you can do a lot of urine testing without arousing suspicion Do not consume any alcohol in any form for at least 48 hours before starting. The first day is to establish a base line for comparison. Tes…

The hypothesis: Alcohol inhibits ketone production because the liver metabolizes the alcohol in preference to anything else until all the alcohol is used up. During the time the liver is metabolizing alcohol it does not produce new ketones. Since alcohol is used for fuel rather than blood ketones the supply of ketones in the blood are treated as excess and excreted in urine. So we should expect to see a rise in urine ketones above base line while the alcohol is metabolized and until blood ketones start being used for fuel again.

My Urine ketone test experiment:

Tue, Jul 30 Determined Baseline Urine Ketones
19:00 Trace: 5, 0.5

Test Procedure:

• 19:30 Ethanol 1, half shot
• 20:30 Ethanol 2, half shot
• 21:00 BAC .17
• 21:45 Ketones Trace: 5, 0.5
• 22:00 Ethanol 3, half shot
• 23:25 Ketones Trace: 5, 0.5
• 23:30 BAC .16

Wed, Jul 31

• 00:45 Trace: 5, 0.5
• 00:45 BAC .15
• 08:00 Ketones Negative: 0, 0.0
• 08:00 BAC .0

Note: I have established that my urine ketone baseline previously and it has not changed. So last night’s pre-ethanol measure simply confirmed it. Thus, I did not bother doing multiple tests.

My result does not support my original hypothesis that urine ketones would rise when the liver started to metabolize ethanol. My urine ketones stayed at baseline. Interestingly, my urine ketones actually went to 0 overnight. I suppose that might be expected given that ketone synthesis was halted during ethanol metabolism and whatever acetoacetate was present in my urine originally was eliminated and not replenished.

[ctviggen]

BAC = blood alcohol content? You get a BAC of 0.17 from one shot of liquor?

What is your normal ketones in the morning? (Mine are always lowest in the morning.)

[PaulL]

I’m not surprised you’re not seeing results that support your hypothesis. I reviewed Becca’s original post, and I believe that the logic is faulty, as well as some of the underlying concepts.

As I understand it, the processes of ketogenesis and gluconeogenesis proceed, even during the processing of ethanol. Gluconeogenesis might actually be assisted by the conversion of ethanol into glucose—a good thing, since the body cannot afford to stop feeding its red blood cells for very long, without disastrous consequences.

The idea that ketosis causes fat loss is erroneous, unless carefully qualified. The biggest source of fat loss comes from the metabolism of fatty acids by the muscles, the use of fatty acids by the liver in ketogenesis doesn’t approach that level. Even if the liver were to halt ketogenesis temporarily, which Dr. Phinney claims doesn’t happen, according to the most recent research, the muscles would still be burning fat, unless serum glucose rose to such a level as to tip the insulin:glucagon ratio back into anabolism and force the muscles to metabolise glucose.

I suspect, however, that even if that were to happen, the effect would only be temporary, because the liver is more likely to store the glucose generated out of ethanol as glycogen for later release, as long as the serum glucose level is adequate. The presence of stored glycogen might then make gluconeogenesis temporarily unnecessary, of course, but that is hardly a problem. Furthermore, given a catabolic insulin:glucagon ratio, glucagon would still be promoting ketogenesis, so it’s not likely that the cessation of ketogenesis would be a problem either.

[amwassil]

According to my ‘cheap breathalyzer’ I got .17 after one ‘shot’ of Tanqeray Rangpur. That response was probably due at least in part to having consumed no ethanol since mid-April. Note that after the third ‘half-shot’ my BAC continued to decline. Of course, it may have gone up and then down again before I made the 23:30 measurement.

I have no idea what my ‘normal’ ketones are in the morning. What I do know is that my BrAce is generally highest just before going to bed and upon arising, so presumable overnight. I have mentioned in other places my seeming ‘inverse relation’ between BrAce ppm and level of physical activity. @carolT suggested a very plausible explanation for this. When acetoacetate is just floating around in the blood not doing much of anything more of it breaks down to release acetone. When it is being utilized more completely, there is less left over to break down. Also, during higher levels of activity, less would be produced in the first place since muscles and other cells would be burning fatty acids directly rather than shuttling them through ketogenesis. From which I conclude that during physical activity I’m burning fat directly rather than producing ketones. Although, it’s certainly not cut and dried. The past several days I have been producing consistenty high BrAce ppm measurements. I have also experienced somewhat higher internal temps. So again, as you have also asked previously, what does it all mean? I don’t know.

[barns]

interesting but .17 does seem high for 1 shot. did you at least do a water chaser to make sure your mouth and throat were rinsed out.

[amwassil]

interesting but .17 does seem high for 1 shot. did you at least do a water chaser to make sure your mouth and throat were rinsed out.

Surely, you jest

Seriously, I mixed the Rangpur in an 8oz mug filled with soda water each time. But no, I did not. I didn’t really care what the initial measurement was, just wanted to sidetrack the liver for a while to see what happens. So the reading may be high. The 0 reading in the morning suggests that whatever it was to start, the ethanol got metabolized out in 9-10 hours or so.

Also, keep in mind, I used my ‘cheap breathalyzer™’ for this.

[amwassil]

Out of curiosity I just sampled my urine (14:30 PST) and it’s back to my baseline.