Studies comparing LDL with CAC scores

(Alec) #1

Has anyone seen any research comparing CAC scores with LDL levels? Now that we have technology like a CAC scan, surely a great way to test the diet heart hypothesis would be test and compare CAC scan results with LDL levels (or other “cholesterol” measures) to see whether there is a correlation between a CAC scan score and an LDL number?

If that is a dumb idea, why is it dumb?

(Bruce) #2

Great idea but I reckon the ‘diet heart hypothesis’ (fat is bad for you and raises your cholesterol) guys will hate it!
Not sure what’s out there but I recall Ivor Cummins mentioning something I think???

(Bruce) #3

Don’t know whether this is what you’re looking for but it does do some comparison. I’ve not looked at the source paper yet though.

(Old Baconian) #4

Because if the results turn out as I suspect, the pharmaceutical companies will lose billions in statin sales. Their poor CEO’s won’t receive their $80,000,000 bonuses and will have to sell a couple of their vacation houses and live in shame thereafter. That’s why it’s a dumb idea . . . :grin:

(Alec) #5

That is kinda what I was looking for but not quite. The REALLY interesting fact in there is that the CVD risk calculator does NOT use LDL level, and of course, Ivor shows that LDL level does not predict CVD at all. So the risk calculator guys know this. So…

… yes, of course, how stupid of me not to recognise why this would be a terrible idea. No wonder nobody has actually done it. :rage:

(Old Baconian) #6

Here are some studies that turned up in a cursory search on “LDL CAC” in PubMed:

(Alec) #7

Thanks!! I am never very good at reading original research. I always get lost in the scientific jargon. I might give these a shot and see if I can make head or tail of them.

(Old Baconian) #8

I have trouble with the jargon, too, and I am far from ignorant (lots of medical people among my family and friends) or stupid. I also find that some of the details literally make my eyes glaze over (it’s a weird feeling, LOL!). But let us persevere. Something is bound to sink in, and it is sometimes possible to tell just from the wording, whether the researchers are biased or not about what their data are telling them.

Dr. Malcolm Kendrick, a Scottish cardiologist with an acerbic sense of humor, discusses a lot of these matters on his blog. He says that a lot of studies should be printed out, crumpled up, and tossed in the recycling bin. (Well, it was funny in context!) He also feels that once you know the players, you can tell just from the researchers’ names what conclusions the paper will reach.

(Kenneth Russell) #9

N=1 Study going on with me…
55 year old Male
LCHF/KETO more than 5 years
200+ pounds lost
T2 Diabetes reversed
Taking no prescription drugs
Active- 15k daily steps on average with some cardio
TC 350+
LDL-C 250+
HDL 75 to 80
TG 45 to 65
VLDL 10 to 13

January 2017 CAC score of 347- 91st percentile for my age
Started following Ivor Cummins supplement recommendations
May 2019 CAC score of 158 - 75th percentile for my age
That’s a 54% CAC scrore reduction in 28 months!
My LAD score fell from 101 to 16 - 85% drop.
My doctor & cardiologist - baffled, yet still pushing the statin
Me - I’m hoping that this is a good thing. I feel like I am in uncharted waters. But I ain’t changing anything. Planning another follow up in 2 years.

(Alec) #10

This is freakin’ AWESOME!!! Brilliant. You are the poster child. So, when I finally get a CAC done and it ain’t so great I will know what to do.


(Doug) #11

Great post, Kenneth. :sunglasses:

(Patricia Martinson) #12

Kenneth, I see that Ivor Cummins recommends Vitamin K2, potassium, Magnesium, Vitamin D, but what are the doses he suggests that could be helpful in lowering a calcium score? And are those supplements the only ones he recommends?
(My calcium score is 57, but my doctor tells me that level of disease requires a statin, so I am anxious to try to lower it.)
Thank you.

(Old Baconian) #13

The K2 and the D will help get the calcium back into the bone where it belongs, and the potassium and magnesium will help keep it in balance. The key is to keep your salt intake in the proper range (10-15 g/day, including salt already present in food), so that your body can keep all thosse minerals in proper balance.


I read a lot of mentions in the forum to K2.
There are a number of different K2s…8 I think. So people need to ensure they are taking an effective one for the purpose they intend it. The K2 from green leafy vegetables won’t get the calcium into your bones (afaik).
The only Ks that direct calcium into bones are K2m4 and K2m7 and some sunshine on bare skin is a better way to get Vitamin d if it is possible.

I don’t have rheumatoid arthritis but I do have serum negative arthritis.
My cardiac calcium is zero and was way before I started taking K2m7. I defended myself from an overactive GP who was pursuing my cholesterol levels trying to get me onto a statin when it was against my best interests as far as I could tell from my own research. My approach was to get my cardiac calcium done, showing the all clear…then research and locate a cardiologist who was speaking out against statins publicly (in the 90s). I take the K2m7 personally because I have osteo-arthritis… which dumps calcium in joints. My mother had it very badly and she also developed vascular dementia, so I take it as a preventative.

I don’t take a calcium supplement for this reason.
I do chew on the occasional organic chicken bone.
My own belief is that there is a hereditary component to the cardiac calcium predisposition which has been seriously aggravated by the focus for a few decades on a low fat diet which everyone here knows has been massively destructive.

I am telling my friends who are attempting to get their husbands off statins that if they have already had a heart attack those are the people who do need to be on them and they need to replace CoQ10 because statins deplete them.

The dear cardiologist who sorted out my then GP told me the cholesterol scores were meaningless numbers with my profile and no history of cardio problems in my immediate family.

If I had a heart attack, I would run to get a statin… otherwise I run constantly (people keep trying to prescribe them for me cause I am over 60) away.

(Kenneth Russell) #15

Hey Patricia

Sorry I missed your comment/question. As I said in my post above I’ve been following the advice I found in Ivor Cummins videos for the most part. I’ve also followed the work of Dr. William Davis on the subject and found the Fat Emperor interview with Patrick Theut rather interesting. Everything I’ve run across talks about D3, K2 and magnesium. Dosage was all over the place, though - so I just sort of guessed on what I should be doing. My CAC score went down, so what I’ve been doing is working for me. I’ve been prescribed a statin, but I refuse to take it. I’ve never taken a statin and with my active lifestyle I know that I would suffer from side effects. I believe that my CVD was a result of a poor diet, as was my diabetes. I’ve reversed the diabetes and gotten off of all prescription drugs. Now I’m working on the CVD. A good diet and proper supplementation seems to be doing the trick.

This is what I was doing between my 2017 CAC scan and my follow scan last may… 90 mcg K2 Mk7, 500 mcg K2 mk4, 200 mg magnesium citrate twice daily and at least 2000 iu D3 (often twice that or more). I’ve been consistent over the past 2 years taking all of these things, but the brands have varied (based on what was on sale) and the amounts have changed over time. I only take 1 dose of Mk7 since it is expendsive. Mk4 is cheap and said not to remain in your system for long. I often take it twice daily. I used to take a mulivitamin, now I just opt for taking vitamin C. I’ve taken a couple of types of magnesium, but landed on citrate as it is cheap and better absorbed than the cheaper oxide. I’ve probably averaged 4000 iu of D3. I take more in the winter and less in the summer when I am getting some sun. I finally had my D levels check last January - just to make sure I wasn’t overdoing it. My level was 50 – all good. BTW: I’ve never taken CO Q10.

I do a low “Net” carb keto diet. I eat lots of fiber. I take a table spoon of psyllium husk powder (7g of fiber) whisked into a glass of water (with a squirt of Mio, a tsp of ACV and a dash of No Salt and sea salt) before breakfast and again before dinner. I first started doing the fiber thing 5 years ago to aid in controlling BG spikes. As a diabetic even LC meals could spike my BG and fiber helped level things out and gave me better satiety between meals. Later I did it for cholesterol lowering effects. As a matter of habit I take it with my supplements. During the first 3 months of this year I was doing a “plant free” trial. I dropped the fiber. Except for that n=1 I’ve been eating a LCHF/KETO + 20g or more of daily fiber for the past 4 years. I did fine with and without the fiber. I’m considering dropping it again – but since what I’ve been doing is working I’m a little afraid to mess with it.

For exercise I walk for the most part (15K steps per day). I also do some slow ‘old man’ jogging 2 or times per week. I like to hike and bike, too. I’m fit and I move a lot. I just don’t move all that fast.

(Joey) #16

Fascinating … been interested in learning more about K2 sources/supplementation possibilities. Thanks for sharing the specifics.

Do you mind sharing the extent of the effect this had on your CAC score (before vs after)?

(Kenneth Russell) #17

This a follow-up to my post above where I reported a 54% drop in my CAC calcium score in 28 months. I wasn’t provided CDs with image data for either one of my scans. Since my results were rather unbelievable, I wanted to see the images for myself. I requested the CD copies of my scans and they arrived a few weeks ago. The clarity of the images is not what I expected. They are a little fuzzy. But the bright white spots of calcium can clearly be seen. I put together a PDF with side-by-side images from both scans synced up as best I could to show the same area of my heart. I got what I wanted. With my layman’s eyes I see less calcium in the 2019 scan. At the very least I see no progression. So what do you think?

Side-by-Side of my 2017 vs 2019 CAC scans

(Joey) #18

I think it’s remarkable.

While I can’t judge anything from the visuals (and would hesitate to even try to discern just what the areas in one image indicate vs the other), the scores derived by the radiologist tell a compelling story of calcification reversal.

There are the more traditional practitioners who do not believe this is possible, and then there are these recent anecdotes of such reversal actually taking place through the use of K2. You appear to be living proof that reversal is for real.

Congratulations - and thanks again for making this information available to others!

(Old Baconian) #19

That’s quite an impressive reduction in calcification. Good for you! :+1:

(Dean) #20

I am a Radiologist and our institution performs CAC studies. A computer calculates the actual calcium score. Looking at the images it appears that the overall distribution of the calcifications are the same but the density of the calcifications are less so I believe that the overall score had definitely decreased. I believe calcium scores can decrease but even calcium score stability is associated with a reduction in coronary arterial disease.