Studies about the health impact of red meat and legumes & cereals?

(Mark Rhodes) #21

From the McGovern Report:

“The question to be asked, therefore, is not why should we change our diet, but why not? What are the risks associated with eating less meat, less fat, less saturated fat, less cholesterol, less sugar, less salt, and more fruits, vegetables, unsaturated fat, and cereal products—especially whole grain cereals? There are none that can be identified and important benefits can be expected.”

So the question, contrary to @RobC (sorry Rob) is not as much a fallacy. We have done untested trials before. This trial is the McGovern report put into action and continually refined rather than reviewed. That it is refined speaks to the fact that everyone seems to have overlooked the commission itself wasn’t willing to wait any longer and had a strong desire to act.

Those actions have been seriously detrimental. Under those guidelines we as a country and world have become more obese, more T2D, more Alzheimer’s, more depression, more more more.

So Rob C other point then should be considered: What diet can I follow that is not dangerous, long term. Here, you are alone. You must decide for yourself!! I accept that the evidence for the LFHCMP diet is flimsy at best. I also agree that the evidence I see from long term -10 plus years ketogenic living in a steady supply of N=1 anecdotes is enough to compromise a minimum epidemiological study that actually works pretty good at removing answer bias. Under this I am willing to move ahead as I DO KNOW that short term benefits are astounding- far better than any other eating plan other than the possibility of carnivore.

That is my take anyway.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #22

Something Dr. Berry said at Ketofest this year has stuck with me. If we were to eat the proper human diet, there would be no question of its long-term safety. “Are you sure that the proper human diet is safe to eat? Oh, wait . . . never mind.”

In his mind, and in mine, too, a well-formulated low-carbohydrate/ketogenic diet is the proper human diet. The more I learn about human evolution, the more I believe this. The more I learn about our current dietary guidelines and how little science there is to back them, the more I believe this.

And the more I agree with Dr. Berry that we should stop referring to “keto” and just say “the proper human diet.”

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #23

Just to try to put some statements “on the other side”:

Are these comments reasonable? Can they be debunked? Should we take the (supposed) conclusions of these studies with a pinch of salt?

I do not want to troll or anything. I just want “to know the truth”. And I think the truth can only be accomplished by “looking at the other side”, and showing “the other side” is not right.

(bulkbiker) #24

10,000 years grains and legumes… millions of years mainly meat…

logic should prevail.

(Bunny) #25

Beans and potatoes (type 2 amylose maize resistant starch) are the best food on planet earth, if all your eating is meat; your still going to burn glucose (gluconeogenesis = steady and low supply of quasi endogenous/exogenous glucose), it all depends on the amount of muscle tissue you have that controls RMR (resting metabolic rate) and BMR (basal metabolic rate). When you do a ketogenic diet; what you are in fact doing is compensating for the muscle (glycogen) to adipose (lipid droplets) ratio mass you don’t have (enough skeletal muscle?) to oxidize sugar/carbohydrates right after it is eaten but instead trying to oxidize fat rather than glucose! Just think about it and it will start making sense to you as a scientist?

Sugar turns (endogenous) into fat (lipid droplets), you eat fat; you burn fat! You eat sugar, you burn sugar (glucose/fructose) and store the rest as fat after glycogen storage capacity in skeletal muscle tissue has been replenished!

If you continuously deplete your glycogen storage (via ketogenic or fasting) without trying to build muscle mass then you will go around circles trying to keep the weight off (adipose fat to lean skeletal muscle body tissue) or reach a stall point while trying to lose body fat with the ketogenic diet; you will gain all the adipose weight back rather than trying to gain muscle mass/weight as part of the goal?

(bulkbiker) #26

Seriously? has your account been hacked?

(Bunny) #27

Science, it’s all about the science!

(bulkbiker) #28

these days whenever somebody says “the science” then I tend to turn off…

(Bunny) #29

…being most (almost all of it) of the research scientists conduct and studies can’t be duplicated and they cannot duplicate there own research, but what is causing such a paradox? Too many variables to account for?

We focus too much on the diet and not the condition of the body before we went on what ever diet?

(bulkbiker) #30

I tend to focus on the condition of the body after the diet… and what to eat to maintain that condition… beans and potatoes do not appear in that whatsoever.

(Bunny) #31

You probably could eat beans and potatoes now? Most people are inclined to believe that is junk food or a highly refined high octane carbohydrate just because it is quote a “carbohydrate!”

It is when you eat it (beans and potatoes; colon health) with highly refined carbohydrates, that’s when it is bad for you!

(bulkbiker) #32

Possibly I could but I have zero interest in eating the types of foods that made me ill in the first place.
I have absolutely no desire to “push the boundaries” to experiment with my health thanks.
In my view carbs are my poison, are completely unnecessary for healthy nutrition so are off my menu period.

(Bunny) #33

For example eating wild rice and only wild rice not mixed with domesticated rice is equivalent (even better than meat nutritionally speaking) to eating meat!

I it eat all the time!

It is great when fried in bacon grease and bits of bacon, veggies and eggs! Mmmmm!

#34

Please explain…? And what do you mean by meat? Grass-fed liver? Well-marbled grass-fed ribeye? Pastured chicken?

(mole person) #35

I recommend you dig up and read the study. I’d bet this is just epidemiological correlation and that no actual trials with either people on low carb or ketogenic diet were a part of any methodology. In fact, if it’s the study i think it is the lowest carbohydrate group ate over 35% of calories from carbohydrates and started the study sicker, fatter, exercising less and smoking more than the other quantiles.

Always find the original research. These articles are just click bait.

(bulkbiker) #36

Now you know that is complete and utter crap really don’t you…

You’ll be onto the “heart healthy whole grains” in a minute…

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #37

One question: we always speak about carbs. But it seems to me all carbs are not all the same, in a similar way all calories are not the same.

I think a keto diet considers vegetable carbs as better than sugars and simple carbs, though always less than 20 per day. But could it be there is a gradation?

For example, vegetables > beans > whole grains > refined grains and sugars

Or this does not make sense?

(K-9 Handler/Trainer, PSD/EP Specialist, Veteran) #38

I agree. I personally don’t care about longevity, as I do the quality of the time that I’ll be here.

(Bunny) #39

Grass fed organ meats (offal) and glandulars are not steak (muscle meats; the carnitine shuttle) they are high in vitamin K, Choline (liver) and high in every vitamin on the planet especially when mixed with cod liver oil; (puts the calcium back in your bones and teeth where it belongs with adequate fat intake instead of attaching to your arteries and internal organs) and your not eating a bunch of refined sugars on top of it!

(Full Metal KETO AF) #40

The article really says nothing. Just that keto is dangerous and unhealthy. Increased cancer rates? That says to me ignorance. So what if Atkins died from a heart attack at 72? That proves nothing. He might have died from a heart attack at 36 like my uncle did if he had just ate the standard American diet.

There was no studies listed, I tried to follow the link and didn’t find much of anything and the studies were epidemiological so there’s a 80-100% chance the data was skewed or irrelevant. A questionnaire about how you eat is inaccurate for many reasons including impossible estimates like how many cups of ribeye steaks do you eat per year. I think a basic education in the fallacy of dietary epidemiological studies is in order Arbre, Nina Teicholz is a good source to get a better understanding of this. if you truly believe that keto is unhealthy and harmful you probably shouldn’t be eating in a way that you believe will shorten your life and kill you from a stoke, heart disease or cancer.

But seriously keto helps those problems as many here can attest to. Especially the cancer folks like @KetoCancerMom for instance. Epilepsy shortens lifespans and causes brain damage. Sugars are poisonous to your body in the long slow damages they do as with a high carbohydrate diet. Alzheimer’s is a solid example of how a LFHC diet is damaging to the brain long term. Plenty of research on these things if you look for them and plenty of Vegan/Vegetarians who have a non nutritional agenda with diet. My choice is keto, do what you believe is best for you. There will never be any solid evidence as proper studies will never be funded. The money is with big grain producing aggregates who fund research and get results to back up their money making machine. That is X1000’s times the money anyone has ever made as a doctor or author promoting what I consider to be a healthy lifestyle that gets rid of metabolic syndrome, the thing that’s actually killing most of the world’s population with cardiovascular, liver, kidney, diabetes and cancer which I believe are the effects of metabolic syndrome and a developing diabetic condition under all of those scenarios. Carb heavy diets lead to this.

:cowboy_hat_face: