Studies about the health impact of red meat and legumes & cereals?

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #1

I would like to understand potential long term effects on health of eating a keto diet.

Valter Longo explains often that epidemiological studies show that people eating more red meat die younger. And eating legumes and whole cereals increases lifespan.

But as a scientist, I know epidemiological studies are fraught with difficulties. First, the quality of the answers of people (people lie for many reasons, for example). Second, correlation does not imply causation (for example, maybe the reason is that when people eat red meat, they eat more sugar; or maybe they eat very low quality meat).

Also, I do not know if it is even possible to make long term comparisons, since I think it is unlikely many people in the planet have been eating keto for decades.

Since taking a long term diet is a crucial step in one’s life, one should know that this diet will not have deleterious effect on long term health.

So, my question is: are there any studies that could show if eating red meat, and/or legumes&cereals, are good/bad from the point of view of a keto diet, on the long term? For example, eating red meat, and stopping eating legumes&cereals, is it good/bad on the long term?

(bulkbiker) #2

From my perspective… meat has been in the human diet for thousands of millennia.
Legumes and especially cereals maybe for the past 10,000 years since the early agriculturalists.
That mankind thrived in the period before agriculture is enough to convince me that meat is healthy and that we are designed to eat it.
There are a huge amount of “modern” conditions fixed by a meat only diet… if you like n=1 anecdotes then www.meatheals.com has a long list.

As a scientist you know that unless we lock people up feed them specific diets over their complete lifetimes and record their illnesses and longevity then there will never be concrete 'proof" of what we should be eating. And even if you did that there would still be confounders.

With that in mind I eat what makes me feel best, helps to maintain my weight and keeps illness at bay. For the moment that is a relaxed carnivore diet.

(Bob M) #3

The WHI dietary intervention trial split 49,000 women into two groups. The group under test ate 20% less red meat (statistically significant) and the study was powered to determine effects on cancer and heart disease. After 8 years, no effects.

There was one other actual RCT about red meat, with the same results.

ALL other studies are epi, meaning there are too many factors to find any relevant data. Usually, the people who eat red meat are not following the dietary advice and are doing tons of bad stuff.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #4

If, and that’s a big IF, eating red meat corrilates to higher mortality, it may also be because the type of people who have eaten a lot of red meat over the past 40 years are the kind of people who don’t listen to their doctors or other health advice. So they may also drink more and smoke. I personally think smoking is the biggest confounder.

(Bob M) #5

I agree with Ruina. These types of epi studies are really studying bad versus good actors. (Though there is also poor versus rich; healthy user versus not healthy; etc.) And let’s not even get into food frequency questionnaires, which they give sometimes twice in 30 years. Trying to determine what happens over a span like that is useless. The last 30 years, I went from super low fat, near vegetarian diet, to pizza, beer, and ice cream, to a diet filled with PUFAs and sugar, to a near zero carb diet. In that time period, I’ve also tried so many other things (resistant starch, pro/prebiotics, l-reuteri yogurt, many different vitamin regimens, too many to list). If I have a heart attack tomorrow, what is to blame?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

Most of the assessments of red meat come from researchers with a vegetarian agenda. Objective research tends to show that red meat is actually good for human health, and this was, of course, the general understanding among nutrition scientists until Ancel Keys got into a position to start forcing his diet-heart hypothesis on the public. A couple of re-analyses of Keys’s own data show that he ignored a far stronger correlation between sugar and heart disease in his Seven Countries Study, a correlation that, unlike the one he decided was significant, does not disappear when all the countries for which he collected data are taken into account.

(Robert C) #7

I don’t agree with this statement - you do not need to know and it could lead to inaction.

  • If, after known / expected “Keto flu” symptoms have passed and you are sure you are fat adapted, you feel physically and mentally great - then start digging into the “long term” worries (as it is worth it at that stage).
  • If, on the other hand, something about your genetics or a problem with your gallbladder or all of your blood numbers unexpectedly go bad or social interactions can’t be worked out or something ends up making you feel very bad on Keto, no further research is necessary.

A couple of months on Keto will not affect your long term health negatively without sending you a strong message along the way.

There is also a fallacy buried in your request for information. That is, that by not doing Keto (because of some “potential long term effect”) that you are somehow safer staying with your current diet. In today’s food environment and with most dietary plans (that include weight loss) boiling down to calorie restriction and / or more exercise - it is unlikely you would be doing better than Keto sticking with your current diet (which has brought you to the doorstep of wanting a change so, I assume, not getting you what you want).

(Bob M) #8

I’ve been low carb/keto since 1/1/14. Here are the results of my coronary arterial calcification scan, which indicates how much (“hard”) calcification of the arteries there is. I’m 55. As you can see, if low carb/keto is causing “clogged arteries”, it’s not doing a great job of it in my case.

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(Edith) #9

I was recently listening to a podcast with Ivor Cummings and he mentioned that there seems to be some research coming out that Keto can actually reverse the arterial calcium score. It used to be thought that one could only stop the progression but not reverse it.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #10

This is actually not surprising. I suspect that the cause lies in the higher levels of vitamins D and K2 that one tends to get on a ketogenic diet, plus the higher level of fat intake to carry them into the bloodstream.

(Bob M) #11

Yes, it’s too bad I did not get one done before starting low carb. Maybe mine was higher back then?

(Todd Allen) #12

The scientific data we have on diet is extremely inconsistent. Perhaps it is due to poorly done science. It may also be due to human variation. Either way I don’t much care, what matters to me is not what is best statistically for some chosen population but rather what is best for me.

What is best for me long term is impossible to know. But I can try things and see how they work in the short term. And by regular reevaluation of short term goals and how well my diet is meeting them and adjusting as needed I feel fairly confident that I will do ok long term.

(Edith) #13

My diet has certainly evolved over the decades and I believe continually improving as I’ve gone along. First, I tried The Zone Diet. It upped protein and lowered carbs. That helped somewhat and I stuck to those proportions for many years. Then, Eat Right For Your Type based upon blood type. That is how I discovered gluten free and all the benefits gluten free had for my family. Besides episodes of calorie restriction (to lose weight) on and off over the years, keto has been the next diet experiment. I’ve been eating this way for two years and so far, I don’t see any reason to change. Who knows? As more information comes in, my keto diet could end up being tweaked. But until then, as long as I’m healthy and my blood tests come out fine, that is all the proof I need. But… I will keep reading the research.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #14

Red meat of course! :cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::joy:

:cowboy_hat_face:

(Full Metal KETO AF) #15

Sugar causes heart disease, not meat and fat. Seriously though it is a great experiment underway because it’s medical dogma we are up against and their advice hasn’t turned out to be trustworthy. If you think a vegan or Mediterranean diet or whatever is right feel free to do it, my diet was killing me and keto turned that around. Why not stick with what is making you healthy whether or not it means life extension it does mean an improvement for the time we have. Isn’t quality of life a real issue and longevity vague, I would rather be strong and feel good instead of feeling like life quality sucks and I have to endure diabetes and Alzheimer’s syndrome for 10 miserable extra years even if it were true that keto doesn’t extend your life, which I believe it will. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #16

Is this assertion proven scientifically?

(Robert C) #17

I don’t think you need a study for proof.
Prior to the introduction of processed carbs in the early 1900’s heart disease was just about zero.
Google “heart disease since 1900” and look at the resulting images for graphs.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #18

Second time posting this link today, I watched it last night and it is enlightening

Dr. Robert Lustig, Professor of Pediatrics and Endocrinology at the University of San Francisco. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Cristian Lopez) #19

You have to also know that the people eating red meat usually eat it in a burger with potatoes or somewhat other form of starch like spaghetti and meatballs.

(Mark Rhodes) #20

It was indeed K2 Paul.