Struggling on keto

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #35

On average, among a wide range of hunterer-and-gatherer populations.
Gene pools are fairly mixed anyway, but observations show for example that Japanese immigrants to the US developed pretty much exactly the same diseases of civilizations during the last century as US citizens, so I guess differences aren’t that marked.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21745624/
229 hunterer-and-gatherer populations, to be precise.

Variations depending on the location, of course. Less carbs in the tundra, a lot more in tropical grasslands with plenty of fruit.

Doubt it if you want, but that’s what the studies say.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #36

Agree, but the OP has issues that need to be resolved. If she runs into weight problems, she can always implement different strategies.

Keto is something that people should feel great on, and clearly we have to find out why it’s not working for her. As to this end, I suggest more calories, at least for a while.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #37

Your cited study:

Diets of modern hunter-gatherers…

Abstract

In the past, attempts have been made to estimate the carbohydrate contents of preagricultural human diets. Those estimations have primarily been based on interpretations of ethnographic data of modern hunter-gatherers. In this study, it was hypothesized that diets of modern hunter-gatherers vary in their carbohydrate content depending on ecoenvironments.

Modern hunter-gatherers have something our non-modern hunter-gatherer ancestors did not. Benefit of the Holocene and the domestication and selective breeding of plants. The Holocene is overall 20-30°F warmer than the preceding 115K years of the last Pleistocene max, since the end of the Eemian minimum. The reduction in overall temperatures were world-wide, although the reductions were maximum in higher latitudes and less in tropical regions. Most of the plants that we currently eat to obtain carbohydrates did not exist during glacial maxima and those that did were nothing like their modern descendants. They were high in cellulose and very low in digestible carbs.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #38

I should add, as well, that less than 100 years ago the Inuit of arctic Canada were eating a diet that contained virtually zero carbs, which fact was documented quite thoroughly by Vilhjalmur Stefansson in multiple accounts of his years living with them. He later proved his point that such a diet was entirely adequate and healthy during a year-long experiment conducted at New York’s Bellevue Hospital under supervision of some very skeptical doctors and nutritionists.

#39

Please get yourself checked for COVID-19. My daughter was sick for 80 days and her main symptoms were: Severe exhaustion, digestive issues, no hunger/ appetite, dizziness, brain fog. She also had tingles in her hands and feet and occasional racing heart.

She never had any of the commonly known symptoms, except 1 month in she lost her sense of taste and smell for 2 weeks. Please, please get tested.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #40

Finally, I should also mention that during the last glacial max atmospheric CO2 concentration dropped nearly to 180ppm. Plant CO2 starvation begins at 150ppm. So we dodged an existential bullet that would very likely have ended most life on earth. Under those conditions plants were struggling to survive, not flourishing as they are now. CO2 is plant food and the more they have the healthier they grow and flourish. The lows in the following graph were not good times to be alive. Be happy you live now and not then.

CO2%20and%20Sealevel
CO2 and Sealevel.JPG773×296 32.7 KB

#41

Oh I’m so sorry to hear about your daughter!
Wish the best for you and your daughter. Hope she feels better.
I tested for covid in June and it came out negative but I’m planning on getting tested again soon.

Thank you for the heads up.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #42

And yet these Inuit were not in ketosis, due to a gene variant. Not representative for us.

It’s possible that older civilizations ate less carbs. I’d like to see studies on that before I can comment on that. According to the study I cited (you’ll find the full text on academia), only tundra populations ate ketogenic (3-9 percent carbs). “Northern forest” was 10-15%. Also populations would tend to have been larger in more temperate areas, I’m on thin ice there but I think humankind evolved mainly in Africa, didn’t it? So a dip in temperature could have been offset by a population distribution centered on equatorial areas. Not too many primates up in the north, back then.

However, that’s all speculation. What’s not speculation is that the paleopathologic research say that these studied hunter-and-gatherer civilizations were healthy, despite eating up to 35% carbs. So there is no indication at all that eating some carbs (seasonal, unprocessed, without seed/grain oils) would lead to diseases of civilization. And ketogenic individuals or communities that were healthy do not contradict this in any way. But seems the number of truly ketogenic communities are preciously low in any case. The Inuit are out, the Masai are out (drank a lot of milk IIRC), and then what?.
While there is clear evidence that other civilizations (like the egyptians), eating like they worshipped Ornish books, were diabetic and fat at 30 and dead at 40. So yes, paleopathology can and will tell us if a civilization developed metabolic syndrome and all that comes with it. Mike Eades recently did a new talk on this (available on youtube).

This discussion may not make a difference for me personally, prediabetic after 40+ years of high-carb, low-fat, high-omega 6 diet. Chances are my metabolism will never fully recover, and I may have to eat keto or nearly keto for the rest of my life. But may make a difference to people that are metabolically healthy.

I don’t see any scientific reason why metabolically healthy people shouldn’t eat up to 100g unprocessed carbs a day, unless there are studies that I’ve missed. And I don’t know of any evidence that up to 100g carbs is worse or better than ketogenic diet for people without insulin resistance. Sounds perfectly reasonable to try “some carbs” if you run into trouble on keto.

#43

100 g of carbs would make me fat (and has). That amount of carbs also is triggering for me. Some of us are just that way.

(Bunny) #44

I experienced the same thing when I first started so what I did is eat unlimited carbs (Whole Foods veggies and variety) and did not eat as often and realized there is enough fat in the animal proteins and veggies like avocados I eat to sustain me and not eat so often, trying to do a diabetic or epilepsy 20 gram carb keto diet (you will not last long) and is not good if your not either?

The more issues you have the more frightened you will be with each attempt of ketogenic diet?

One other important note I do not eat as often and can naturally gauge my hunger and take an occasional look at my blood sugars.

What I would shoot for is sustainability not restrict-ability?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #45

See discussion here:

(Bunny) #46

…Bunny the Starchivore…

You don’t get a big brain from only eating fat and meat or you would still be in the jungle on all fours…

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #47

You will find this of interest: https://www.jbc.org/content/80/2/461.full.pdf

The gene variant is specific to omega3 fatty acids:

CPT1A imports long-chain fatty acids into mitochondria for use in fatty-acid oxidation. This helps to maintain energy homeostasis and normoglycemia when carbohydrate intake is low.27 The extent to which the c.1436C>T mutation contributes to disorders associated with CPT1 deficiency, such as hypoketotic hypoglycemia and sudden infant death syndrome, is still unclear. The derived allele has been reported as being deleterious in both the homozygous and the heterozygous state. Yet, its phenotypic effect might depend upon many environmental factors, e.g., feeding history, infection, and climate.13, 27 It is known that the mutation decreases fatty-acid oxidation and ketogenesis, explaining its role in hypoketotic hypoglycemia.13, 28 However, there is also evidence that the mutation decreases the inhibitory effect of malonyl-CoA on fatty-acid β-oxidation in mitochondria, thereby partially compensating for the drop in ketogenesis associated with reduced CPT1A activity.13, 28 A study on Alaskan Yup’iks also suggests that the c.1436C>T mutation might exert a cardioprotective role through its association with elevated levels of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and reduced adiposity.28 Moreover, the large amounts of n-3 polyenoic fatty acids in the traditional diet of these aboriginal peoples are known to increase the activity of CPT1A.13, 28 In this context, the CPT1A-activity decrease due to the c.1436C>T mutation could be protective against overproduction of ketone bodies.13 These important metabolic effects of CPT1A provide the basis of our hypothesis that the c.1436C>T mutation might have conferred a metabolic advantage for the Northeast Siberian populations in dealing with their traditional high-fat diet. The deleterious effect of the mutation might be explained by a change from the traditional diet to a more carbohydrate-based one or by recent cultural shifts and environmental stressors such as fasting and pathogens.

In conclusion, CPT1A c.1436C>T joins the short list of known human variants where ill health in present-day populations is a likely consequence of the same variant’s being selectively advantageous in the past. Compared with the sickle cell allele rs334 (associated with sickle cell disease [MIM 603903] and malaria resistance [MIM 611162])31 or rs73885319, rs60910145, and rs71785313 in apolipoprotein L-I ( APOL1 [MIM 603743], associated with kidney disease [FSGS4 (MIM 612551)] and sleeping-sickness resistance32), the c.1436C>T allele shares the property of altering a protein sequence. However, unlike the sickle cell allele, it does not represent an example of heterozygous advantage but instead provides an advantageous or disadvantageous effect dependent on the environment. In this way, it extends the range of selective forces contributing to current ill health beyond infectious diseases. It illustrates the medical relevance of an evolutionary understanding of our past and suggests that evolutionary impacts on health might be more prevalent than currently appreciated.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #48

That’s the key. Metabolically healthy. After a few decades on western diet, hardly anyone is.

(Keto Koala 🐨) #49

I’m a 31 year old female ( Well it’s obvious :upside_down_face:…The avitar pic ain’t no boy). I started keto on January the 1st this year. I am commenting because I can RELATE somewhat. I went through very very similar. Heart palpitations…dizzy…Tired. But I was a tad obcessed. I started with three small meals a day…then in a few days two…then decided a few days later to do, one meal a day. Once every 24 hours and sometimes 27 hours…I was never ever hungry until just before my meal. I would have coffee with HWC during the day and that kept me filled. I drank two litres of water a day for months…Oh I then decided to do Carnivore too. So I had no plants…or any condiments exept salt for flavoring. I STILL was tired. Even days when I ate 1500 calories. And I got envious of people who go keto and get really energetic ( my mum had a LOT of energy on keto…for a while until she started starving herself). Anorexia is in my past. So I was very much obcessed. I would weigh butter 10 grams, and if the butter was 11 grams…i had to put the 1 gram back.:roll_eyes:. I’m not sure why YOU are going through this, but I must admit I have also had bad health complications…both in my past and now. ( I’m currently in hospital for a bleeding ulcer). AND I had COVID in April and it lasted ages and im still having yucky post Covid symptoms. So I’m not even keto right now. But once home I’ll go back to Carni.:wink:. My advice?? Hahaha I’m SO not one to give advice…so I’ll just say the motto…Keep calm and keto on… But everybody has free will and I wouldn’t tell anyone to do any thing. So it’s only been 7 weeks…your body may be still adjusting to this way of eating??:thinking:. Give it some time and if it’s not for you that’s fine too. We are ALL different bodies. So our bodies react differently to different things…Omg I’m totally rambling.:scream:. It’s the drugs I am on.:upside_down_face:. Hospital drugs. And it’s boring in here so whatever. But I hope that you feel better and your body starts to feel benefits.:grinning:

(Keto Koala 🐨) #50

@Shinita I must simply agree with you on the calories thing. It dosen’t work for everyone.:heart:. Might for some and good for them. When I started keto I got SO many conflicting advice…YouTube. OMG. Watched videos saying ( from a doctor) that calories don’t matter and that if you cut your carbs way down and avoid sugar…you can eat as much fat as you like. Then I watched other videos…People saying calories DO matter…then videos about protein and how too much can turn to sugar…ect ect…I was SO CONFUSED. :upside_down_face:. So I sort of just did my own thing. ( but you know how I ate :wink:). But I would go days on low calories…Ok TOO low…then suddenly have 1500… Once I got to 1600 and that was my highest and that was from fatty bacon. I love bacon but Omg…it’s so high in calories. Still good though.:heart:. So it’s like my metabolism would slow down too much and I would then try to " amp it up".??. Don’t know how it worked. My body I treated like a science experiment.:scream:. But as you know. I ruined it and got sick and now I’m not even on keto…so what a Dickhead for even be on here…silly :roll_eyes:. But I’m going back to it and you already know anyway so I won’t go on and on. GOD, all I was meant to say is I agree with you about calories.:no_good_woman:‍♀. See, I can be serious.:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:. Damn the spelling errors to hell. Drugs…Too lazy…ect…:blush:…OH…nope…i can’t, I need to correct it. I blame spell check but it’s probably ME.:joy_cat::see_no_evil:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #51

Just for the record, fatigue is one of the signs of protein deficiency, as well as of not getting enough calories. That is why, in addition to eating low-carb, we strongly recommend eating a reasonable amount of protein and adding fat to satiety (i.e., to the point of satisfying one’s hunger). Too great a restriction of calories causes the body to become very careful with its energy expenditure; a generous amount of food makes the body expend more energy. As for eating only 1500 calories, the Minnesota Starvation Study during World War II defined 1600 calories a day as a starvation-level diet.

(Edith) #52

How much salt are you getting? On keto, I needed to supplement an extra 1.5 to 2 teaspoons of salt a day plus whatever was in my food. I used a salt mix of 4 parts salt and 1 part No Salt (KCl).

Also, how are your iron levels? Your diet doesn’t seem to provide enough iron. Could you have iron deficiency?

#53

It doesn’t matter what studies identify as starvation-level, it’s obviously individual, 1600 kcal is way too much for many short women, they eat less for maintenance even without a slowed down metabolism.

Fat to satiety doesn’t work for everyone either. I can massively overeat fat without feeling more satiated. The type of fat matters to me. Added fat just adds calories so I do my best to avoid them. But they work well for others, that’s fine, we need to learn what works for us and do that.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #54

If you’re feeling ill effects on keto, you shouldn’t restrict calories.
If you feel good, and you’re not losing enough weight for your taste, then is the time to think about calorie restriction. Or changing eating habits.

Keto isn’t a tool to lose weight. Keto is a tool to eat healthy, and that should be the #1 concern. Weight will take care of itself in many cases, as most people normalize their weight if they eat healthy…