Stop telling newbies to eat more fat!

(Jenny) #289

this! ^^^

(Jennibc) #290

You know what I think about ‘experts’? Not much. They were the ones that came up with our food pyramid. Experts staff our medical schools which teach that pulling out the prescription pad is the first thing you do when someone presents with symptoms of any kind. I think the key for each of us is to become uber critical thinkers and look at the information ourselves. I have been tracking my weight loss for about 8 and half years. My biggest and most rapid drop was about three years ago (I was around 232 at the the time and had stalled for about a year and half after slowly losing just under 40 pounds cutting grain and increasing my protein). I read the book Eat Fat, Get Thin and figured even though it went against everything I’d ever believed, it was worth a shot because reduced calories, no grain, and daily exercise was doing nothing. So I upped my fat and took off 30 pounds in four months. My calories stayed roughly the same. So even though I was carrying all that extra fat around, I still was easily able to access those stores. I still was consuming moderate carbs in the form of fruit and dairy and some sugars. But then I hit another long plateau and all that is gone now. I think every BODY is going to be different and we need to do what works for us. That said, I don’t do bullet proof coffee or add fat just for the sake of adding fat. It means that I started leaving skin on chicken, ate fattier cuts of meat, increased my avocado consumption from 30 gs to 60 gs, swapped half and half for heavy cream in my coffee and started roasting my vegetables in olive oil rather than steaming them and swapped out cooking spray for healthy oils (avocado, coconut, grass fed butter and EVOO). I didn’t need to introduce any of these fat bombs to reach 70 to 80% of my calories coming from fat.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #291

Well the rest of your post, I agree with and can get on board 100%!

But the experts – like Phinney, Westman, Volek, Phinney, Ludwig, Taubes, Atkins and others – are the very reasons why you’re even doing low carb right now to begin with. Phinney is considered by many to be the father of nutritional ketosis. He’s been researching it for decades. He’s probably the main reason you even use the word “ketogenic.” So when he tells you that you might be eating too much fat or protein, it may be worth listening, simply to be congruent with your own dietary beliefs.

I mean, if you’re rejecting what Phinney says because it contradicts something you believe, you may want to ask yourself why you believe it in the first place.

(Bob M) #292

I bought a continuous glucose monitor to test my blood sugar after eating very high amounts of protein per meal. The result? Nothing. No blood sugar rise eating 120+ grams, 160+ grams (and more) of protein in ONE meal. Phinney disagrees with this, says your blood sugar will rise with too much protein, but I have the actual data to prove he’s wrong (at least on this point).

And which “expert” do you believe? Ted Naiman (you can’t overeat protein) or Phinney (protein causes higher blood sugar) or Bikman (protein does not cause higher blood sugar because insulin is balanced by glucagon). Personally, I set out to test that Ted Naiman was wrong, that’s the reason I bought a CGM. And I found that I like lower fat, higher protein better. And if Naiman is wrong, I couldn’t prove it. In fact, I no longer eat a lot of higher fat foods because they are unpalatable to me. I also found that protein is satiating, while fat is not.

Not everyone will have my results. Jimmy Moore, for instance, gets hypoglycemia if he eats too much protein (or, oddly, fat), which they theorize is due to a problem in his glucagon response. I don’t have that same issue.

From my perspective, when the 2 keto dudes had Phinney on the show, he said two things in the first 20 minute that I thought were outright wrong, so I stopped listening after that. I have no doubt that he’s an “expert”, but I don’t think he’s right all the time.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #293

I’ve experienced the same thing. He’s not wrong; he’s giving advice across a population level. It’s widely acknowledged that protein can push your BG up. I bet if you ate 300g of protein you’d see a BG rise though!

None of the primary cadre of keto scientists/physicians (Westman, Phinney, etc) disagrees with the fundamental idea that you shouldn’t overeat calories. In the New Atkins guide, they specifically say that if you’re not losing fat then you should drop your calorie intake (among other suggestions.)

Personally, I’m with you on this. I had my best results eating lower fat and higher protein. I think my fat gains on keto have been partly due to dietary fat overload.

I think he walks on water, but horses for courses! Many people don’t like his views on extended fasting, but he’s looking at the human research studies in the literature, and I respect his contrarian opinion precisely because he’s basing it exclusively on his reading of the literature rather than on trends. I get that you stopped listening to him, but again I state that the man ought to command an inordinate amount of respect for being one of the only scientists on the planet doing research on ketogenic diets in the decades during which low-fat reigned. I have no doubt he was regarded as a lunatic by many during this period, and to switch him off today because some of what he says isn’t palatable to you in the moment is, perhaps, a little short-sighted.

The Dudes say, “we’re not worthy” (mimicking Wayne’s World) whenever Phinney is on the show. The man is a living legend and ought to be regarded as such, especially because of (not despite) his views which contradict the reigning “keto” orthodoxies that seem “outright wrong.” That’s just my 2 cents.

(Jennibc) #294

Actually, they are not! I stumbled upon HFLC on my own after I started removing stuff from my diet because I decided that being morbidly obese and eating a regular amount of food made no sense so my obesity wasn’t caused by calories. I started cutting stuff about 8 and half years ago and by last March I was practically keto. Then I friend told me about Keto in June and I started looking into and decided to give my daily two servings of fruit the heave ho.

(Cathy) #295

All foods are insulinogenic. Even the smell of food can cause an insulin response. The reason for limiting the amount of protein (as I understand it) is really to limit Mtor which is thought to be a major player in the aging process.

A person who is insulin resistant will have higher blood glucose response to many things but it is likely because the body can no longer manage blood glucose effectively and this happens before the diabetic diagnosis. Read Dr. R. Krafts work for a better understanding.

Every person who is doing a ketogenic diet requires a diet that is primarily fat in order to satiate, and control insulin production. Eating things like fat bombs might hinder the process because they almost always come with a dose of either carbs (which should not be ‘deducted for fiber’) and/or artificial sweeteners. The problem with both is that they may stimulate appetite.

(Kiranjeet Bhabra) #296

Thanks the pdf on the link makes tings so much easier to understand

(Edith) #297

I have found if I eat too much protein in a day, particularly at dinner, my blood sugar is elevated and blood ketones are depressed the following morning.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #298

That’s what they say. I am out of test strips at this point but when the budget allows, would love to experiment again. I am eating way over what Chronometer says I should be eating. Before I started the no dairy challenge, cheese intake alone was taking me over.

(Edith) #299

I can’t eat cheese, but pork rinds have the same effect for me.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #300

Day three no cheese, no stomach ache. Funny story, had the real deal pork rinds today. Yuck! My husband had been picking up a bag from a small Mexican restaurant. Loved them. Today, strangely, he directed me to a different Mexican restaurant. Hot off the presses. I got so grossed out. I asked what the difference was. It loosely translated to the kind I liked was “fabrica” and “chemicals.” I will just do without pork rinds of any type in the future.

(Helen) #301

hi, im a newbie as in only a couple of days , im totall confused already! I have no concept of grams I understand 50% of my plate needs to be salad and I like a bulletproof coffee in the morning and can live without my beloved frothy milk :smile: I’m not overly overweight but do carry the horrible spare tyre and need to lose about 5 kg , I have always been taught oats and whole grains are ok and up to now had a sweet tooth but am comfortable dropping that, I would follow a diet to the letter but can figure out where my nutritional needs are going to come from and what they are in the first place !! I instinctively know Keto is right for me but that’s it , I thought I was an intelligent woman but the more I read and watch the worse it gets .

(Edith) #302

Welcome. You will figure it out. It is easy to start with the basics: fatty meat, eggs (if you can tolerate them), leafy greens and other low carb vegetables, and everything cooked in fat: animal fat, butter, ghee, olive oil, coconut oil, avocado oil. It’s best to avoid the highly processed vegetable oils. If you don’t have any issues with dairy: low carb dairy including cheese, heavy cream, and butter are also okay.

You want to keep your carbs to about 20g per day. That’s a fair bit of greens for example, but it can be broccoli, cabbage, etc. Protein needs to be moderate. Keto is not a high protein diet. Then fat to satiety. Just eat until you are satisfied and then don’t eat again until you are hungry.

The only caveat is making sure you get enough salt. Keto is diuretic and sodium leaves along with the water. You will need to get about 5 grams of sodium a day. That’s about two teaspoon of table salt or almost three teaspoons of Himalayan salt. So, that can be gotten through what you eat and supplemented via salting your water, drinking broth, or bouillon tea. Magnesium is another electrolyte that most people need to supplement. If you keep your electrolytes up that will help avoid the keto flu.

It helps to read some books. “The Keto Diet” by Leanne Vogel is pretty good and has some good recipes. Her recipes are dairy free. “Keto Clarity” by Jimmy Moore is also a good, easy read. If you like something more technical there is “The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living” by Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek.

Once you start getting settled in to this way of eating, it is quite easy to be creative. There are tons of keto recipes out there. There is a thread on this forum called “Boring Keto”’ or “What Did You Boring Keto Today” (something like that), which is a great place to get food ideas and see how other people eat keto.

Good luck.:four_leaf_clover:

(Diane) #303

The thread with food ideas is:

(Helen) #304

Thanks :pray: I think I might have been overthinking it :grimacing:I might just keep to this forum it seems very informative and easy to follow, and I think I managed to get it as far as food goes at least today :joy:

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #305

Yep! Don’t worry about macros. Avoid sugar and starch. That’s about all there is to it!

(Bob M) #306

My theory about protein and ketones: It’s not the proteins that cause ketones that go up or down, it’s the fat. For instance, you eat 2,000 calories a day, and you increase your protein. Assume your ketones go down. You think it’s because your protein has increased. I think you’re wrong. I think it’s because your FAT has decreased. Similarly, you increase your fat content (and decrease your protein content). Assume your ketones go up. Is this because you decreased protein or because you increased your fat? I think it’s the latter.

A corollary: if you eat a lot of fat, more than your body needs for calories, your ketones will go way up.

I say this because I have a year’s worth of continuous glucose monitor readings showing meals with a lot of protein (more protein in one meal than most people eat in a day) do not cause ANY rise in my blood sugar level. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

And yet, I think (though admittedly it’s tough to tell) that increasing my fat content causes an increase in ketones. I know it does if I eat a ton of fat. And yet, I easily maintain ketosis eating a ton of protein.

So, to me, this means fat affects the level of ketones much, much more than does protein. Much more.

Now, are higher ketones better? They are if you have cancer. Otherwise, I’m not sure they are any better.

For me, fat is not filling. Protein, on the other hand, is filling.

(Natalie) #307

YES I totally agree I wish so many others would understand this, what I would also honestly say to newbies or even other ketoers, is to not be afraid to eat protein! A lot of other people on keto try to eat extremely low amounts of protein thinking protein can easily kick them out of ketosis. They also do this do have their macros be 85 to 80 percent of fat and like 4 percent carbs(Which in my opinion thats unnecessary).Honestly what newbies should do(if asked their doctors of course) is to start interment fasting to create a baseline for fasting and also to run on fat longer, then later on progress to regular fasting(but they could also just do interment fasting only if they wanted)

(Cathy) #308

You may be correct but the problem with testing blood glucose in efforts to determine the effects of food (quantity and type) is a problem because blood glucose measures your bodies ability to keep it under control. If you are insulin sensitive, blood glucose will not rise as quickly or stay as high compared with a person who is insulin resistant. Dr. Ron Kraft makes a very good case for this.

The other problem is that extending the digestive track with food is also considered a trigger to raise blood sugar so it might not be the protein or fat but the physical fact of the extended gut. This is according to Dr. Richard Bernstein. He is the guy who has learned to manage his type 1 diabetes and went on to write about it and share many of his ideas. Quite an interesting story.