Stop telling newbies to eat more fat!


(Give me bacon, or give me death.) #269

Now, that sounds like truth. I suspect that the original notions of which was more satisfying were just speculations on the part of some experts, and over time we’ve come to assue that it was settled science.

Interestingly, equal grams of fat and protein is what Dr. Naiman recommends, as a corollary of the protein-leveraging hypothesis that he supports.


(Boots on? Balls to the wall? Good start.) #270

It works great for me. Much more enjoyable than the higher fat :slightly_smiling_face:


#271

We may all be different pertaining to 1% of our DNA and the metabolic havoc of being born & raised in industrial society. However, when I’m down the rabbithole of researching and pondering keto-paleo nutrigenomics, health, and healing - I also get a kick out of remembering that we’re 99% the same. A short list:

mammals
biological beings
dimorphic species
born of the female body
water babies (we’re 65%+ water)
we’re mostly space on a subatomic level
bones with the same elements as stardust
entirely dependent on our one & only planet
homo sapiens (homo divinitus with enough fat & protein lol)
universal in non-verbal language and core cultural mythologies
bacteria (over 90% of our molecules are bacteria, or something like that)

:rofl: :avocado: :steakcake: :coconut: :chicken: :sheep: :bacon: :fish: :water_buffalo: :herb:


#272

I also eat similar amounts of fat and protein, Actually the fat turns in at about 10g per day more. This isn’t by design, just the way things worked out for me.

This gives me a reasonable macro mix too.


(Bob M) #273

I think it’s highly dependent on the individual. Age, extent and type of metabolic damage, male/female, amount and type of exercise you’re doing, etc., all affect this.

In my 5 years of low carb, I’ve tried so many things I would have a hard time listing them all. I read a book by Jimmy Moore that advocated eating high fat and stating that if you’re still hungry, you haven’t eaten enough fat. So, at one time, I was eating tons of fat bombs, bullet-proof coffee, adding fat to my steak, etc. I could never tell I was full. (Note that this is nowhere near what happens to me on high carb, where I never, ever get satiated.)

I got on twitter and started seeing posts by Ted Naiman. Convinced he was wrong, and protein = blood sugar, I bought a continuous glucose monitor and set out to prove he was wrong. What I found out was the opposite. For me, protein caused me to be full and I had no blood sugar rise I could discern.

So, now I eat a lot of low fat, high protein foods (shrimp, ham, mussels, other lean meats). This does not mean I do not eat fat, as I do, and I still eat some keto meals, as these tend to be easy to make for a family. And fat tastes good, at least animal fat does, so I’ll eat all the fat on meat. I just choose leaner meats overall and choose quite lean meats a lot of times.

I think you can overdo protein, without enough fat. One time, I ate about 1 3/4 pounds of “london broil” in a sitting (after 36+ hours of fasting and a workout), and that’s a very lean meant. It’s somewhere near 200 grams of protein, depending on where you look for the info. I was not hungry – at all – but I felt somewhat sick. I think this is the “rabbit starvation” scenario, where you eat lots of protein with low fat. So, if I buy london broil (always on sale for some reason), I add some type of fat (tallow, pemmican, homemade Italian dressing, etc.) to it.

I think it behooves everyone to test higher or lower protein on yourself. Jimmy Moore and Dr. Limansky tried Ted Naiman’s protein-sparing modified fast (higher protein, but lower calories) and HATED it. (See The Keto Hacking MD podcast.) Jimmy got hypoglycemia. They interviewed quite a few other people, including body builders, and got a wide range of responses for the same parameters (but different foods – again, another confounder is the different foods everyone is eating).

Try eating different levels of protein on yourself.

But I think overall the idea that we need to eat tons of fat is suspect. I’d rather see an emphasis on eating whole foods.


(Jane) #274

I agree we all react differently to fat and protein.

For me protein fills me up… fat keeps me from getting hungry longer. I think I would feel sick before I felt full eating a lot more fat at a meal. But I get full pretty quick on protein and if I don’t have some fat with it I get hungry a lot quicker. Not the hangry-got-to-eat-now but hungry.


(Adam L) #275

Yeah, you tell me Gabe, because I’m asking questions I clearly need to be TOLD.
And yeah I said it was fat past satiety not fat to satiety didn’t I. No I didnt

Edited to add - Seems I’ve taken this very much the wrong way, apologies @PaulL


(Justin Jordan) #276

Literally popped in my FB feed in another tab while reading this:


(Running from stupidity) #277

“Protein is more satiating than carbohydrate or fat.” This statement has passed as fact so often many people don’t question it anymore, even in evidence-based fitness circles.

It has?


(Justin Jordan) #278

In the context he’s talking about, yeah.


(Jane) #279

I guess it depends on how you structure the study.

If I was to eat as much protein as I could before feeling full on Day 1 and then on Day 2 was to eat as many mashed potatoes as I could before feeling full… I believe I would consume a lot more potatoes if measured in calories. The density of mashed potatoes is so much less I think I could eat a lot more.

Haven’t tried it and don’t intend to know so just plain conjecture.


(Dan Dan) #280

LOL :rofl::joy:

I’ll say it again “CONTEXT” :thinking::wink::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

IF/EF KETO for a NEWBIE/BACKSLIDER is to convert to using FAT as your primary fuel source (ENERGY, Fat-Adapted) and to relearn the feeling of being SATIATED/CONFIDENT as not being full/stuffed but having enough ENERGY to make it to your next meal :thinking::face_with_monocle::sunglasses::wink:

A low carb, moderate protein, highest fat you can tolerate Ketogenic diet using MACROS and TDEE with IF/EF is the best/easiest way to accomplish this conversion for a NEWBIE/BACKSLIDER :open_mouth::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

This is a tried and true method that works but is of course not the only way. Some choose high protein moderate fat and some go the zero-carb/carnivore route, and many hate fasting and others hate counting macros and some like to experiment throughout their journey of Fat for fuel…

… whether it comes from your diet or body it’s all about the FAT so … eat more fat!:wink::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

“May the Force (fat adaption) be with you”

IF/EF Keto WOE is Self-Discovery :wink:

Good luck and much success in your journey in IF/EF Keto WOE :grin:


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #281

That’s a lot of emojis you’ve used right there! I agree, fat to satiety. But what you’re saying goes against what the experts say. Phinney (on his company website Virta Health) says that a ketogenic diet looks like a high protein diet in the early stages of fat loss – that is, for newbies – because they’ve got the most body fat to burn and so that’s where a lot of their energy is coming from. So they don’t need to eat a lot of fat – they already ate those calories, years ago, and now that the insulin is lower the body is free to burn it off.

When you are losing fat, you are in caloric deficit, and you will be “eating” your own body fat. Per Phinney:

I cannot disagree more strongly with you on this point, and I could not be more sure that I have the experts and the science to back me up on this. Click the following link for more info:

https://blog.virtahealth.com/how-much-protein-on-keto/


(KM) #282

My two cents is the original classic ketogenic diet was 4:1 fat:carbs/protein. It seems the truly restrictive nature of getting upto 80% calories from fat has spurred the restrict carbs only movement. I dont know if thats true but if it is then 99% protein and 1% carb should be also ketogenic but I dont think it will mimic the entire physiological changes known and unknown which result from the classic ketogenic diet. If it were indeed true the masses will be able to follow this diet as protein is tasty, filling, non nauseating and much better tolerated than fat. I dont know what is correct way as yet.


(Scott) #283

I don’t measure anything. When I started I added some fatty meats and eggs for breakfast , avacado at lunch and ditched the carbs. I did add mct oil to coffee though. I will adjust later if needed but this works for me.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #284

Well this is a bit of a straw man; nobody is arguing for a 99% protein diet. Protein is insulinogenic beyond a certain level, so your protein requirements remain roughly the same no matter how much fat on you — it’s dependent on your lean body mass. So you’re only eating a gram or so per kilo of LBM.

The reason a ketogenic diet appear relatively high-protein is that you’re burning body fat. So there’s a thousand calories a day you don’t have to eat. Because you ate them a decade ago.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #285

Mate, if it works for you, have at it!

My challenge has been that I’ve gained fat weight whilst on lchf and even whilst in ketosis. And it turns out this is very common, and that people like Phinney have addressed it by saying you’re probably eating either too much protein or too much fat. I’m focusing on fat because nobody here thinks you should eat more protein, but as I’ve said above, the advice “eat more fat” gets tossed around here all the time. And often it’s not good advice. It’s often just plain wrong.


(bulkbiker) #286

What about all the carnivores?


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #287

None of the keto authorities argues in favour of such a diet; I remain on the fence about the healthfulness of carnivore. But if you take the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis seriously, you have to concern yourself with how an excess of protein is insulinogenic.

https://blog.virtahealth.com/how-much-protein-on-keto/


(bulkbiker) #288

Except of course it isn’t… check out Dr Ben Bikman…I would nominate him as the new face of Keto/carnivore authority… and forget the old ones that you place so much faith in… but hey that’s just my 2 cents so feel free to ignore me as much as I do you… but check out Bikman if you haven’t already.